Multi-episode files [outdated]

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wahaha
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Multi-episode files [outdated]

Post by wahaha » Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:23 am

Let's assume we have an anime with x episodes. How should a file be added that includes 2, 3, 4, ... eps in it be added?

EDIT: If you're reading this, you may want to skip directly to the suggested compromise below ;)

There are basically two methods:
  1. Add the file to a special episode (e.g. "Episodes a-b")
    • + The episodes' contents is visible already in the ep-overview
      + Can't be confused with single-ep files
      - Can makes these eps less visible
      - Can create a long list of specials
      - (Special) ep-numbers don't represent anything useful
  2. Add the file to the first episode it includes and mark it with a special comment (e.g. "Joint ep a-b")
    • + They're easier to find (since they're assigned to the same ep as regular files)
      + Doesn't need seperate episode-entries
      + If used with a specific format, the info could automatically be interpreted (for example or in AOM, or to create shadow files later)*
      - Ep-title/length can be misleading, especially in ed2k-links
      - The "multi-ep"-info can sometimes be less visible (ed2kdump)
*) I argue that this equally applies to both method

Currently both methods are used, but of course there should only be one standard, which could then be enforced in future edits. Which one to choose?
Last edited by wahaha on Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PetriW
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Post by PetriW » Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:46 am

I'm all for number 2. Good job of summarizing.

I'd also like to point out in favor of alternative number 2:
+ The natural reading order of a page is from top to bottom, if the file by ASS (for example) for episode 1 is a double episode you'll see ASS directly there, you'll see it has a little comment next to it. The comment says "Joint ep 1-2". In the group description you'll see x files and (most likelly) stalled.
+ This solution also supports a feature request I want to make: Adding a "First Ep" field just like the "Last Ep" field to the group info box. This helps you with where to start looking and if a group is releasing from episode 1.

Negative for alternative 1:
- In this case you have to start with what groups are releasing files for the anime. You want files by ASS so you check episode 1, no ASS there, so you scroll to the bottom where there's Episode 1-2, you expand the node and maybe find ASS there. Ok, lets assume they indeed have released ep 1 so you want all files for the anime, then you have to repeat the above steps for all episodes. This is trivial for a small anime but for a large one (naruto anyone?) you will most likelly want to expand all nodes leading to a 2mb document, not that the original page is much faster if you just open single episodes at the top and bottom. In the group description you'll see x files and (most likelly) stalled just like alternative 2.


Exp, I know you don't want to implement shadow files but sheesh man.
If nothing else just code support for it in the anime page and put support for over the rest of the site on "todo". So we can at least use it. :roll:
I wouldn't mind incorrect statistics, it not displaying in mylist, incorrect counting of how many files you have or anything, I just want to not have all these useless problems that it'll solve.
Anything you make that would have to change after you add it will be undone work when you do add it.

And if you don't want to do it, should someone of us learn perl and do it? I bet sooner or later there'll be several desperate enough! :cry:

*Goes back to coding aom like a little bee, wru shadow files so I don't have to implement file episode spanning!*

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Post by PetriW » Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:29 pm

Oh yeah, I'd also like to point out that we've essentially been doing alternative 2 with 1.5 years of placeholder files, why change it now that we have generic files?
Almost all alternative 1 are from September 2004 or later and mainly added by macross1, ultima, elnipp, wahaha, thorgalred and lrdalucard. (oo, half anidb ops)
Aka, alternative 1 started with generic files 4 months ago, I can't remember seeing any official policy change around this time but then I don't read everything.

Alternative 1:
http://anidb.ath.cx/a159
http://anidb.ath.cx/a169
http://anidb.ath.cx/a221
http://anidb.ath.cx/a330
http://anidb.ath.cx/a343
http://anidb.ath.cx/a456
http://anidb.ath.cx/a553
http://anidb.ath.cx/a648
http://anidb.ath.cx/a826
http://anidb.ath.cx/a928
http://anidb.ath.cx/a994
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1484 <- quite special case
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1518
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1531
http://anidb.ath.cx/a2091
http://anidb.ath.cx/a2571
http://anidb.ath.cx/a2662

Alternative 2:
http://anidb.ath.cx/a2
http://anidb.ath.cx/a27
http://anidb.ath.cx/a29
http://anidb.ath.cx/a144
http://anidb.ath.cx/a150 <- because of evil me, was alternative Hen
http://anidb.ath.cx/a185
http://anidb.ath.cx/a186
http://anidb.ath.cx/a239
http://anidb.ath.cx/a271
http://anidb.ath.cx/a470 <- because of evil me, was alternative 1
http://anidb.ath.cx/a525
http://anidb.ath.cx/a629
http://anidb.ath.cx/a783
http://anidb.ath.cx/a786
http://anidb.ath.cx/a875
http://anidb.ath.cx/a894
http://anidb.ath.cx/a947
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1088
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1248
http://anidb.ath.cx/a2429

Both:
http://anidb.ath.cx/a147

Alternative Hen:
http://anidb.ath.cx/a259
http://anidb.ath.cx/a260
http://anidb.ath.cx/a1761

Uncertain:
http://anidb.ath.cx/a959

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nwa
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Post by nwa » Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:24 pm

Yes, variant 2 sounds to be better...

but those 'Alternative Hen' types should be eliminated, the eps should be split...

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Post by wahaha » Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:40 pm

PetriW wrote:Oh yeah, I'd also like to point out that we've essentially been doing alternative 2 with 1.5 years of placeholder files, why change it now that we have generic files?
Almost all alternative 1 are from September 2004 or later [...]
Your own list proves that both methods are equally present in the DB. I strongly disagree with your claim that alternative 1 is a "change".

It's the other way round, IMO, because until after file-comments became visible on the expanded anime-pages, it was (oh well: IMO) undenyably wrong to add multi-ep-files to only one of the episodes they contained with just an (in fact invisible) comment. Now and only with file-comments partially visible, alternative 2 could even begin to become viable.

The reason why I used "alternative 1" ever since was that only episode-titles are always visible when dealing with files, and that the "special"-tag could aswell serve as a hint for the file containing multiple eps. The file-comment isn't visible in some important places: mylist, ed2kdump, ed2llinks and Chii[AR].

And because that's still the case, I prefer the first alternative ATM.

PetriW
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Post by PetriW » Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:18 pm

wahaha wrote:
PetriW wrote:Oh yeah, I'd also like to point out that we've essentially been doing alternative 2 with 1.5 years of placeholder files, why change it now that we have generic files?
Almost all alternative 1 are from September 2004 or later [...]
Your own list proves that both methods are equally present in the DB. I strongly disagree with your claim that alternative 1 is a "change".
Well, except two (I think) of the animes in that list all episodes with this style were added with an episode id of above 20000. That means it essentially started September 2004. Since you don't say what contradicts this I can't say you convinced me otherwise.
wahaha wrote:It's the other way round, IMO, because until after file-comments became visible on the expanded anime-pages, it was (oh well: IMO) undenyably wrong to add multi-ep-files to only one of the episodes they contained with just an (in fact invisible) comment. Now and only with file-comments partially visible, alternative 2 could even begin to become viable.
This was not a problem as there were placeholder files added instead with the proper group name. Thus if you misunderstood the worst thing that would happen was that you'd click a 1000ish byte file which would never download.
wahaha wrote:The reason why I used "alternative 1" ever since was that only episode-titles are always visible when dealing with files, and that the "special"-tag could aswell serve as a hint for the file containing multiple eps. The file-comment isn't visible in some important places: mylist, ed2kdump, ed2llinks and Chii[AR].
Mylist should be fixed, we'll just have to request it I think.
Ed2k links I guess means latest files, valid point there I guess
Ed2kdump, hopefully you know what you're adding if you've downloaded it. I don't think this is a problem.
Chii[AR], if we get a uniform way of marking joint files this can be remedied I think.

I'd like to note that close to 0 files which have been added with alternative 1 have a comment in the file field that it's a joint episode. This means it'll be manual work to sort them out plus that no automated tools can get to them. Alternative 1 also discourages users from marking the files since it's already marked in the episode, this is poor practice imho.


It seems to me from the list like alternative 1 is preferred when a single group decides to join episodes while alternative 2 is used when the double episode is a deviation from the common episode pattern.

wahaha
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Post by wahaha » Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:58 pm

After a (suprisingly far from "heated" ^^) discussion on IRC, we came up with a compromise that uses both alternatives, depending on which has the most benefits:
  1. If a group releases all eps in multi-ep-files (e.g. Future Boy Conan), these files should be added to specials
  2. If a group releases just some files that contain multiple eps (e.g. the dual eps in PoT), these files should be added to the first episode they contain
In both cases, people of course still have to add generic files to their lists. That workaround can't be avoided.

Opinions?

In any case, it is important to have a consistent naming-scheme for special-ep-titles and file-comments that is easy to understand both for humans and programs. We came up with this:
  • Naming-scheme for specials: "Episode[s] X-Y: (Titles of eps)", where X and Y can, if neccessary, be followed by a letter (a,b,c,...) to indicate partial/split episodes.
    Examples:
    • "Episode 1-3: [...]" (contains three eps)
    • "Episode 1-2a: [...]" (contains complete first ep, part of the second ep)
    • "Episode 2b: [...]" (contains second part of the second ep)
  • Naming-scheme for file-comments: "contains ep[s] X-Y" with the same rules as above

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Post by Der Idiot » Wed May 25, 2005 1:08 pm

*revives the thread from the abyss*

as it seems some mods aren't doing it like it was suggested here. I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but we have to keep a clear standard or we are going to make once more a fool out of ourselves....

anyway this needs to be discussed again.

I vote for:
[x] add multiep files to regular files and add filecomments

yes that means work, but it's easiest to understand for the users and all is sorted the way it should. doublestandards and exceptions are never a good rule.

generic files have to be used either way anyway

and yes the user want it that way!
example: http://www.anidb.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3781

and as no one wants to discuss the split ep files I'm dragging that in here too. ( http://www.anidb.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3573 )

[x] add splitep files to regular files and add filecomments
(for the ones not even knowing what those are, because they ignored my posts like always.: look at the conan entry under the specials. some tv stations (*cough german *cough*) split the 1-2h specials into 20min eps and added op/ed)

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Post by DonGato » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:32 am

I'm against that because what wahaha clearly said.

In the case of YUA Specials!, that brought me here, is clearly confusing seeing the list with some episodes released while the rest not. Not all users will know with a simple glance that the files added in some of the specials have all the other episodes.

It's clearly confusing to add the files this way. And no, I don't think a comment is enough. They should be listed as wahaha recommended back then for easier spotting.

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Elias
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Post by Elias » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:06 pm

wahaha wrote:
  1. If a group releases all eps in multi-ep-files (e.g. Future Boy Conan), these files should be added to specials
Another example:
AA! Megami-sama: Chichaitte Koto wa Benri da ne
Im i correct, that following the rules, there should be added 16 specials for AR release?

And i, as normal user, also think that only file comment is not enough. Are file comments visible anywhere than in file details or as tooltip (both methods made it allmost not available normally)? So why should i know that file containts more than one episode until i check file details or move mouse cursor to see tooltip?

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Post by Der Idiot » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:34 pm

after some more months of thinking I think weshould keep it that way with some minor changes i applied on the wiki.

http://www.anidb.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... sode_files

"Episode xx-yy: <Episodetitles for both eps>"

": <Episodetitles for both eps>" part went to hellas it's first messy and second no one or close to no one used it

so this puts a lid on the multi ep discussion. not that it was very active,, but hey :roll:

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Elias
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Post by Elias » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:18 am

In Files:Multi-episode_files there is example:

file 1 contains episode 1 and parts of episode 2. file 2 contains the second part of episode 2
O1: Episodes 1-2a
O2: Episode 2b

but according to Files:Split-episode_files O2 should be named:
O2: Episode 2 (Part 2 of 2)

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Post by Der Idiot » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:01 am

O_o i guess that would look more logical. considering there is close to no
files with a (a,b,whatever) in the db anyway.

this case is way more common and looks better when using the split files part:
3 Episodes got merged by the R1 company and then later cut by the dvd-ripper
O1: Episodes 1-3 (Part 1 of 2)
O2: Episodes 1-3 (Part 2 of 2)
and yes that does really happen...


if the previous partial thingi would be added that way, then 2 indicating it is merged, but was cut at a totally wrong point.
O1: Episodes 1-2 (Part 1 of 2)
O2: Episodes 1-2 (Part 2 of 2)
but that case is rare.

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sput
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Post by sput » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:09 pm

http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... #eid_18089

there are joint eps added (1+2/3+4/ and so on) under the regular eps right now
it appears that for the tv release the eps were aired in pairs but without an opening or "middle eyecatch" coming with it... therefore imho being separately broadcast

now the dvd release comes along and for that it has op/ed + eyecatch and the pairs are merged, pretty much making it appear as a 20 ep series with all eps having 2 "chapters"

but if you take a look at the official site the series is listed as having 40 episodes, each ep with a separate page under the story link ;>

if you take the current wiki as instruction it tells you that so called 'multi-episode files" should be added under the O category...
( http://www.anidb.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... sode_files )

why was it not done here? :P imho it is obviously different from ebichu or nekojiru gekijou...

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Post by pelican » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:29 pm

That page is lying. The truth of the matter is that how multiple episode files are entered depends first on the original submitter and second on the mods' whims.

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