New Language/Sub system for anidb - Discussion [DONE]

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:49 pm

So... you didn't read any of the posts in this thread, exp? *sigh*

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Post by Der Idiot » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:55 pm

short summary from what we talked about on the past few pages and you might have missed *cough*

general
- get rid of the comment and quality rating field. one global quality rating comment field is enough. (i can live with the additional comment fields for the streams, but the qualityrating would end up as a serious mess as the current general one is already)

Video
- flags with options anamorphic and wrong AR
(- Playback AR) <-- might need further discussion

audio
- commentary, fandub, alternative voiceover should be selectable somehow (a type field for audio i guess)

subtitle
- dubsubbed, hearing impaired subs, subs for commentary need to get added to flags

Bugs:
- can't delete files atm ( http://tracker.anidb.info/view.php?id=326 )
- generic files can be set as filerelation from normal files
- generic files have the new languagesystem and one can add relations from generic files to files
- there is a problem with your usage of "streamid" it's slightly cofusing. streamid would normally relate to the actual streamid in the file, but as your usage ain't that way it's well.. confusing. so either make the streamid selectable (so we can enter the id as it's used in the file; that might be useful for aom for identification of the streams for autocreqs) or just simply call it stream(s)

if you don't want to bother with adding additional flags, types and stuff just make it possible for mods to add things themselves ;)

btw i hope you make that whole system creqable. ;)

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exp
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Post by exp » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:07 pm

I did read the thread, it just seemed to me that there wasn't a real consensus among everbody, so i just thought i continue with the initial suggestion.
Made some changes now.

BYe!
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Post by Rar » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:43 pm

Basically, be as pedantic as you can for anything that's autocreqable, only add useful stuff that's not autocreqable but apparent, and avoid like the plague anything that's purely subjective - anything else will be unmaintainable.

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Post by worf » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:03 pm

A few comments on the current implementation:
  • 1. When you click any 'edit' link the '&nonav=1' is dropped. Not really an issue (i like the windows with nav better anyway) but opening the detail page without nav and then adding the nav for editing a file is kinda ... pointless.
    2. Subtitle files are displayed as "video file" in the in the file details
Stream system:
  • 1. Drop the 'Quality' and 'Description' field for video/audio/subtitle streams.
    2. StreamIDs within one file should be unique. So two streams cannot have the same StreamID.
    3.1 Why not get rid of the number field altogether? Kind of pointless anyway. Just sort the entries after StreamID (as is) and generate the numbers automatically. (Lowest video StreamID gets the 1, next video stream in row gets the 2, ..., Lowest audio StreamID gets the 1, ...)
    3.2 Currently when I add a new stream the default No is highestNo+1 instead of the first free No in row. Also I get a "Can't call method "fetchrow_hashref" on an undefined value at /var/www/anidb/perl-bin/modules/adb_db.pm line 188." error when I try to add a No >32767.
    4. Sanity checks for video stream resolution. For example the aspect ratio cannot be 16:9 if the resolution is 100x100. Calculating the AR from the resolution would be even better.
    5. Flags for video/subtitle streams are displayed with a tailing ',' even if its the last flag in the list.
    6. Flags for type of subtitles. Styled, unstyled, picture, ...
Related files system:
  • 1. The relation form needs clarification. Just as described here for anime relations: http://tracker.anidb.info/view.php?id=251 The current note is still a little confusing for beginners. ;)
    2. 'Newer version of' relation should be limited to the same episode.
    3. 'External sub' relation should not be available for video files. They have to be added from the subtitle file anyway. Or rewrite the system so that it is smart enough to detect which file is the video and which the subtitle file.
    4. When adding a relation with a file there already is a relation with you get an error but without the nice red box stuff. Took me 2 hours to even notice the little error message at the top of the page
    5. Relations are sorted by direction rather than FIDs.
Related episodes system:
  • 1. It says "Add File Relation:" and "Other File:" instead of "Episode"
    2. Option to add an episode relation to an episode of another anime (http://anidb.info/f168338)
Adding/deleting/editing streams/relations
  • 1. Adding/deleting/editing streams/relations HAS to only be possible by submitting a creq when I'm not the owner of the file. Free editing will lead to major abuse. Deletion of streams/relations should not be limited to mods but needs to be creqed.
    2. Currently when I edit a stream that was not added by me and then try to edit it again I do not get a page telling me that there is already a creq pending. However when I try to change the entry again I get a message telling me that there is already a creq pending for that entry.
    3. The note at the top of the page after adding/editing a stream/relation is a little small. Also the word 'Note' is used twice. -> "NOTE: NOTE: blubb"
    4. History for relations (by DerIdiot(tm))
Last edited by worf on Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:26 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Post by DonGato » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:47 pm

Quality and comments would be better removed IMO, as worf said.

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Post by suppy » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:51 pm

as most have said. and I agree. one comment/quality field is enough

and I also agree with the suggestion that AR should be calculated from the resolution.

as well as the playback resolution field ... though that isn't superbly important - the information about how many pixels are encoded is the more important piece of information, as most files get scaled to monitor resolution anyway

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Post by exp » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:07 am

I don't quite see how you can automatically calculate the playback aspect ratio from the raw resolution in the file.
And if you have raw resolution and playback aspect ratio, what more use would there be for the playback resolution?

About the comment, from my experience so far I strongly disagree with the suggestion of removing that field. It's just a safetly mesure which will be able to cope with all those details the system can't handle.

About the quality, oh well, I guess that one could be removed if everybody is really thinking that it is pointless to have it. My main reasoning behind it is that I remembered a discussion we had once on this forum about how to distinguish the cause of a certain rating for a file. And how ppl complained that the overall quality rating often only takes the video quality into account and leaves the sub (and sometimes even the audio) quality out of the picture.
And what about a file with multiple audiostreams where the default audio stream is good and the stream for the second language is very bad?

BYe!
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Post by nwa » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:21 am

just drop the quality ratings...

Furthermore, how do you mark the fps as vfr? It only accepts numbers :P
Also, althogu we got shit like flags for hearing impaired subs, dubsubbed and god knows what else, we still don't have the more important part, which is the type of subs, is it .ass or .srt... When there's a release of 2 english subs with 1 being styled .ass and other being .srt, then the sub streams added would be identical and users won't know the difference between them, only the StreamID number

After I've set the anamorphic or wrong aspect ratio flag, why is there a comma after the word 'anamorphic' and/or after 'wrong aspect ratio'?
If you check both flags, you get 2 commas, 1 should be there, the other not.

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Post by worf » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:25 pm

Ok, updated my other post with a few more issues.
exp wrote:I don't quite see how you can automatically calculate the playback aspect ratio from the raw resolution in the file.
And if you have raw resolution and playback aspect ratio, what more use would there be for the playback resolution?
Uhm, no ... calculate the Aspect Ration from the Resolution. And calculate the Playback Aspect Ration from the Playback Resolution. The Playback Resolution doesnt have to be calculated but can be (auto)creqed.
exp wrote:About the comment, from my experience so far I strongly disagree with the suggestion of removing that field. It's just a safetly mesure which will be able to cope with all those details the system can't handle.
Isn't the comment field for the file itself enough to cover this? Additional comment fields will only result in more useless comments like that the subs suck or that there are spelling errors ...
exp wrote:About the quality, oh well, I guess that one could be removed if everybody is really thinking that it is pointless to have it. My main reasoning behind it is that I remembered a discussion we had once on this forum about how to distinguish the cause of a certain rating for a file. And how ppl complained that the overall quality rating often only takes the video quality into account and leaves the sub (and sometimes even the audio) quality out of the picture.
Quality rating of the subs is the biggest problem. A lot of ppl will use that feature to bash groups that are "hated" in the fansub community. Even if they dont have a clue about the japanese language themself they will rate translations. Quality field for video and audio, well, not really needed, but if you insist, k. But looking at how some non-english DTV fansubs get the quality rating "very high" when the video is full of artifacts and can hardly be called "high" ... I can already see ppl setting "very high" for 48kbit/s mono mp3 sound...

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Post by exp » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:40 pm

nwa wrote:Furthermore, how do you mark the fps as vfr? It only accepts numbers :P
are you suggesting an extra flag 'variable_fps'?
i would just leave the fps field either empty or insert the average framerate.
nwa wrote:Also, althogu we got shit like flags for hearing impaired subs, dubsubbed and god knows what else, we still don't have the more important part, which is the type of subs, is it .ass or .srt... When there's a release of 2 english subs with 1 being styled .ass and other being .srt, then the sub streams added would be identical and users won't know the difference between them, only the StreamID number
what is the difference? I mean why would ppl care?
nwa wrote:After I've set the anamorphic or wrong aspect ratio flag, why is there a comma after the word 'anamorphic' and/or after 'wrong aspect ratio'?
If you check both flags, you get 2 commas, 1 should be there, the other not.
just lazyness.

BYe!
EXP

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Post by exp » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:43 pm

worf wrote:
exp wrote:I don't quite see how you can automatically calculate the playback aspect ratio from the raw resolution in the file.
And if you have raw resolution and playback aspect ratio, what more use would there be for the playback resolution?
Uhm, no ... calculate the Aspect Ration from the Resolution. And calculate the Playback Aspect Ration from the Playback Resolution. The Playback Resolution doesnt have to be calculated but can be (auto)creqed.
Why is the playback resolution important? I mean everybody can freely choose it, right? The parts which make a difference are the raw resolution and the playback aspect ratio. So why would ppl be interested in the other parts?

BYe!
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Post by nwa » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:27 pm

exp wrote:are you suggesting an extra flag 'variable_fps'?
i would just leave the fps field either empty or insert the average framerate.
THe average framerate is impossible to be calculated, or at least I haven't heard of a program that can calculate it with VFR material. It's not just the matter of 23,976 vs 29,97, when dedup is used, then you can remove ALL the frames of a static scene and only keep 1 frame and keep it on display for the whole duration of the scene, which can be 2 seconds for example.
Also VFR can also mark the difference in quality, jerky encode vs smooth encode, most of the DVD sources need VFR, if it's not given, some scenes can be jerky and therefore lower quality.

There's no point in having that flag if it can't even be used to give out proper information, not only that, it'd be just lying to ppl saying the source is 23,976 when it's actually true VFR or just VFR (yes True VFR and VFR are 2 different things and only the encoder knows if he had used True VFR unless he told somebody or if you demux the video :P , True VFR = the use of dedup).
Or... gimme a link to a program that calculates the average framerate.

Can't you make the FPS field take strings as well? That would solve the problem, you just have to make a check to it "if string != "vfr" then error".
exp wrote:what is the difference? I mean why would ppl care?
Well I surely care and a lot of other ppl care about .ass subtitles, I have never used my own styling with .srt subs, I'm just too lazy for that, so .ass is my most preferred sub stream.
exp wrote:Why is the playback resolution important?
If the hard resolution, AR and anamorphic flags are present, I personally don't see the need for display resolution myself.

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Post by suppy » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:26 pm

nwa wrote:
exp wrote:what is the difference? I mean why would ppl care?
Well I surely care and a lot of other ppl care about .ass subtitles, I have never used my own styling with .srt subs, I'm just too lazy for that, so .ass is my most preferred sub stream.
I think it would also be of use to note that with srt, all you get is basically just the text, while with ssa and ass, the encoder can make karaoke effects, use many different fonts, shading, ... alot of things. it's like comparing water to beer. you just get tonnes of more flavour and goodness with beer (I'm hoping you like beer; if not, replace with your drink of choice :P)

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Post by Der Idiot » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:37 pm

could just make it an additional flag for subtitles "prestyled" and "unstyled" or soemthing well that or the extention

both can get automated via aom so there should be no problem with this @ maintainability

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