Bad reviews - What to do about it? Suggestions here.

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DonGato
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Post by DonGato » Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:16 pm

Gambit, the nazi-reviewer!
No one can compare to him... even God! :P

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Gambit
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Post by Gambit » Sun Jul 06, 2003 1:25 pm

nwa wrote: My point is that I for example don't write reviews based on that guide..well, maybe only partly since I do talk about animation, sound and about the story separately but it is still different from the guide...so if you approve the reviews based on Gambit's guide(damn you review monopolizer :P ) then I wouldn't be approved?? :?
oh and themug wouldn't be approved either :D
Like you said yourself, my 'review guide' isn`t meant to make people stick to it. It`s more like a guideline how you can write a proper review, but you don`t have to stick entirely to it.
Still, most people who tell something useful about the animation and the story/characters are already enough to make that review being useful enough to be 'approved'.

Let me give an example:
Even though the drawing style is a major turn-off (jesus, just look at those mouths!) and the CGI of the cars is very badly done Initial D has a very high enjoyment factor.

It works like most sports anime, underdog with an amazing hidden talent battles it out to get to the top. But the excitement of the races and some quirky characters and a little romance add a lot of spice to the mix and make this a lot of fun to watch.

Even if you do not like racing per se (I sure don`t) and are not that fond of sports anime this is a nice waste of time which will definitely not bore you.
This person only reviews the animation and the enjoyment factor, but if you look carefully then you`ll see that he bitches at some points, while saying that the anime is still good enough because of the enjoyment. It also contains a little advice for other readers.
Even though he doesn`t say anything about voices/music/op&ed nor the characters itself, it`s not a bad review.

And I already said that I will eventually write a better review-guide, don`t rush me :P

wahaha
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Post by wahaha » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:06 pm

<nwa> you Gambit, you still deleting the shitty reviews? I found some in the following series: Vision of Escaflowne, Mononoke Hime, Naruto, Trigun, Ninja Scroll(movie), Onegai Teacher, Cowboy Bebop, Cowboy Bebop Movie, Ah! My Goddess, Ebichu, Fruits Basket, Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventures, Mahoromatic
Since I didn't find a review worth deleting there 20 minutes later, I assume that you already deleted those nwa meant.
For the sake of transparency, what were these reviews like? All 10/1 and "best/worst" ever? Too short? :?

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Post by BMan » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:26 pm

i.e. #5 of mononoke...
all 10s and "Best Anime I know! Gotta try this one!"...

the ninja scroll review isn't decent either...
"Possibly one of the crappiest "anime" of all time.
This is just violence and sex without story.
Rot in Hell Jubei."

bebop #2
"Tottaly kool kinda tripp sci-fi stuff kinda makes you think some. depending on the episode of course but good anime"
but at least not all 10s, two 9s existent...

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nwa
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Post by nwa » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:37 pm

wahaha wrote:Since I didn't find a review worth deleting there 20 minutes later, I assume that you already deleted those nwa meant.
For the sake of transparency, what were these reviews like? All 10/1 and "best/worst" ever? Too short?
yep, Gambit deleted them right away, all but the Ninja Scroll review since he wanted to vote that..dunno why tho :D

there wasnt much reviews that had all 10's besides of the one that BMan brought an example of and some others..in Naruto I think was also but many of them had just 1 line of text that were just useless

kidan
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Post by kidan » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:38 am

nwa wrote:well, then we already have a problem...Gambit's guide, AFAIK is not ment to be as a standard but to lead the new reviewers into the right direction of not just writing stuff like "Best anime ever all 10's + a little comment about certain something". My point is that I for example don't write reviews based on that guide..well, maybe only partly since I do talk about animation, sound and about the story separately but it is still different from the guide...so if you approve the reviews based on Gambit's guide(damn you review monopolizer :P ) then I wouldn't be approved?? :?
oh and themug wouldn't be approved either :D
Well as the name says a guide is just a guide. So, if a review manages to critically inspect an anime (which means if there are reasons given for your opinion) it would be a good review and should be approved, although gambit's guide would be good to put up some standarts it is of course not the only 'right' way to do a review. Hence not only reviews of this particular style will be approved. I think if a review tells you enough reasons why something is good / bad, it qualifies to be approved.

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Gambit
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Post by Gambit » Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:17 am

wahaha wrote:Since I didn't find a review worth deleting there 20 minutes later, I assume that you already deleted those nwa meant.
For the sake of transparency, what were these reviews like? All 10/1 and "best/worst" ever? Too short? :?
Mostly one- or twoliners, and half of them with all 10s. The reason for deleting them is that they didn`t contribute any useful text at all (and after I deleted 70% of them, I realized that we would rate them when EXP codes that stuff, but then I already finished so many that I thought I could delete the rest as well).
I left the reviews with 4 or more lines alone, according the the law I have to obide :D

In the end they wouldn`t make it with the rule that a review would have a minimum characterlimit anyway. Even with 100 they wouldn`t make it.

BMan
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Post by BMan » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:36 pm

ok, maybe i should've opened a new thread, but i think it still kinda fits here...

i forgot about the rating being reset after editing and added three "s to one of my reviews...well, only one rating, so i don't really mind...
but you sure agree with me that this should be improved...
#AniDB, 08.07.2003 wrote: [01:48:07] <BMan> mh, not good you lose the rating after you edited it, though
[01:48:23] <PetriW|ExcelSaga> BMan, both good and bad ;)
[01:48:30] <nwa> heh
[01:49:02] <BMan> you have to differentiate between major and minor changes
[01:49:31] <BMan> maybe that could be build in
[01:49:48] <PetriW|ExcelSaga> BMan, to be automatically detected?
[01:49:51] <BMan> no
[01:50:00] <PetriW|ExcelSaga> *phew* =)
[01:50:31] <BMan> maybe checkboxes...or through approvement ^^
[01:50:40] <BMan> bit tricky
[01:51:03] <BMan> but why lose rating if i'm just adding three "s?
[01:51:45] <PetriW|ExcelSaga> checkbox sounds reasonable
[01:52:14] <BMan> you have to rely on the user, of course
[01:52:36] <BMan> shouldn't be a problem
i think you can imagine what i mean with minor and major changes...
and yes, i know, the transition is fluently...
but i really don't want to lose the possibility of fixing minor things like typos...and, depending on the rating, i would (not theoretically, of course)...

i hope i made it at least somewhat clear what this is all about ;)

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exp
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Post by exp » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:44 pm

this should be a seperate feature request post :P

BYe!
EXP

samiloop
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Post by samiloop » Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:14 pm

Hiya. Alot of interesting discussion in the topic... There are a few points to tackle still luckily.

IMO: Reviews need feedback. That's the best way to improve one's work. The review approval system currently in use is very nice. Its drawback is that it's very general, and thus overlooks details completely. To contest this there could be a comfortable way to send a PM or a similar small message over AniDB from a review page to a reviewer [who wrote a review there].

Three ways i can come up with to this are...
-A link which would open up MyMessages or whatever it was with the subject set to "reply to your review of xxx" etc.
-A small textbox (very small) somewhere in the reviews page frames/around there
-Forced popup á la AniDB's you-have-new-mail with a small textbox when judging a review with the 'Yes' or 'No' buttons (Naturally this could just be closed if there's nothing to say)

Second option is my favourite, though it would probably look stupid in some hecto-vulcanian 1337x9876 screen mode without careful planning. Since the textbox would be very small, it would already give a clue to most people about keeping it compact. Third one would probably be the most functional choise, though it has a very pampering feeling. Nothing wrong with the first one either, but i'd rather keep it in the same window, or tolerate a very small (but annoying) popup.

To a possible question about the privacy and peace of a individual reviewer: Reviews are always pretty exhibitionistic by nature. Submitting one should jeopardize the reviewer for flying poo and stuff. Also next to this comes the question if the feedbacks to reviews should be made public (i.e. attached after the reviews), but this runs to the problem of reviewing professional review-reviewers' reviews of reviews of reviews.

Second point... Which i haven't really thought over, just ranting for the sake of it. IMO: A review can kill an individuals interest in a given anime. Even while being a "very good review". With this i mean too throughout reviewing - If a user reads the review and then starts to watch, it might be that there's nothing to discover any longer after the reviewer told everything. Including material from the plotline and characters to the review can make it too easy to figure out everything that's going to happen. Is this a problem? Does it depend completely on the individuals view of the world and what they expect from anime?

Was that a wasted paragraph?

Answers to all these, from the same bat channel, same bat time.. blergff.,.

Elberet
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Post by Elberet » Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:22 am

The feedback suggestion has already been solved.
I'm copy & pasting from the reviews page... :mrgreen:
Review Rating:
10 (2 votes)

Other Reviews:
by this user

Contact User:
send message
Of course, you can only send messages and thus see the "send message" link while you're logged into anidb... :P

Regarding the rating system for the reviews, I have to agree with you. Instead of simply voting Yes/No, I would prefer a voting system that has four possible votes. I won't go into details now... this is just an idea, after all. :)

Possible votes:
- Yes, this review was great! (+2)
- Yes, the review covers all important points. (+1)
- No, some points were missing or wrong. (-1)
- NO, this is not a review!! (-2)
These ratings are summed up and divided by the total number of ratings. The result is interpreted as a percentage and lies somewhere between -200% and +200%. Anything above 50% means that the rating was approved. Additionally, the percentage is converted to a stars-rating:
-200% - -50% = 1 skull
-50% - 0% = 1 star
0% - 50% = 2 stars
and so on, with each additional 50% being 1 additional star.

It's probably not worth it to change the review voting system, tho, but a stars rating sure would look nice. ;)

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Gambit
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Post by Gambit » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:43 am

samiloop wrote:Second point... Which i haven't really thought over, just ranting for the sake of it. IMO: A review can kill an individuals interest in a given anime. Even while being a "very good review". With this i mean too throughout reviewing - If a user reads the review and then starts to watch, it might be that there's nothing to discover any longer after the reviewer told everything. Including material from the plotline and characters to the review can make it too easy to figure out everything that's going to happen. Is this a problem? Does it depend completely on the individuals view of the world and what they expect from anime?
A good review tells about the anime without spoiling things. You can describe a character developing without telling in which situation (s)he develops, but you can tell that the character(s) develop(s) in a good way or perhaps even do(es)n`t develop at all.
The characters are a bit lame: "No, I don`t wanna go kick their asses." and the next moment they all yell "Yes, let`s go kick their asses!" without any reason, which sounds at least a bit unrealistic when people change that much within 5 seconds.
i.e. you can say this without spoiling anything of the story itself, but you do explain why the characters are bad. It doesn`t show a background scene or anything, it`s just focusing on a part of the character itself.

samiloop
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Post by samiloop » Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:34 am

Elberet wrote:The feedback suggestion has already been solved.
Indeed. What i think it's now missing would be concrete guidance for passing-by users into giving short feedback for why they think this review is good or bad.
Elberet wrote:Instead of simply voting Yes/No, I would prefer a voting system that has four possible votes.
Also here have to be careful that judging reviews doesn't become more complete and flexible system than judging animes. :P
Gambit wrote:A good review tells about the anime without spoiling things.
Yup i figured that theory part. :) In practice it's completely abstract and quite random. Also getting spoiled depends on the reader heavily too.

I haven't really reviewed things before, so things like these have to be done with trial-and-error ... While striving for sharper text and better reviewing. :P

Elberet
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Post by Elberet » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:59 am

samiloop wrote:Indeed. What i think it's now missing would be concrete guidance for passing-by users into giving short feedback for why they think this review is good or bad.
With "passing-by users", do you mean guests who aren't logged into AniDB? If so, this would mean that guests had to be able to send private messages anonymously, and I don't really like that idea... I'm getting more then enough spam via regular email already. :)

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