[FEEDBACK] new Genre System

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Do we have all needed genres listed?

Yes
10
38%
No
16
62%
 
Total votes: 26

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Elias
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Post by Elias » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:18 pm

nwa wrote:I think Historical should be a subgenre...
Agree, but under which main genre? Fantasy maybe?
nwa wrote:Ecchi falls under comedy, no?
After short scanning of ecchi titles
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=29
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... me&aid=644
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... e&aid=1735
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... me&aid=119
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... me&aid=276
http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... e&aid=1558
...
No, ecchi does not falls under comedy. Maybe in most cases ecchi is connected with comedy. Thats why i proposed another main genre Others for such atributes (Historical and Thriller are another genres qualified to put under Others)

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:38 pm

I think you're all rather misunderstanding this. The aim is not to make a tree out of the existing 'genres', but to expand and sub-categorise from here. Next person who posts 'this is all the base genres we need' is a fool... we can't possibly know until we've tried to break up into sub-categories a bit better. Instead, pick a selection of anime you're familiar with, and try to think of how you could break them into smaller, more detailed groups.

Rar

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nwa
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Post by nwa » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:43 pm

Elias wrote:Agree, but under which main genre? Fantasy maybe?
well, if it's Historical, then it should reflect happenings that have really happened, so it should fall under Drama... oh wait.. "Animes whose setting is in the past. Frequently these follow historical tales, sagas or facts."
Tales? Well that would also make it fall under Fantasy as well... *sigh*

And I see what you mean with some ecchi animes, even though, I can't remember the Ecchi part in Angel Sanctuary...

Other as a main genre is... too vague, but.. uh... I dunno :P
rar wrote:I think you're all rather misunderstanding this. The aim is not to make a tree out of the existing 'genres', but to expand and sub-categorise from here. Next person who posts 'this is all the base genres we need' is a fool...
What I understood from what EXP said, we need to set the main genres, later on the subgenres will be added by mods...
I'd rather want the main genres to be set and frankly, I dunno what else would you add to the already mentioned main genres unless we're going to use more uncommon genres

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exp
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Post by exp » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:32 pm

I think this issue becomes clearer if we all recognize that we're no longer talking about genres here, we're taking about categories.
As such we may well have categories on the highest level which do not correspond to any thing one would call a genre.
I.e. stuff like 'Setting' or 'Audience'.

BYe!
EXP

Andemon
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Post by Andemon » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:49 pm

Rar wrote:Instead, pick a selection of anime you're familiar with, and try to think of how you could break them into smaller, more detailed groups.
Er... I would break them into smaller, more detailed groups by sorting them by the genre, and then by the audience. Exactly what has been done so far. I fail to see any other efficient way to do it. -_-;
exp wrote:I think this issue becomes clearer if we all recognize that we're no longer talking about genres here, we're taking about categories.
As such we may well have categories on the highest level which do not correspond to any thing one would call a genre.
I.e. stuff like 'Setting' or 'Audience'.
If I understood correctly...

Category:
- Action (... stars)
- Shoujo (... stars)
- Present (...stars)
Subcategory:
- Action::Adventure (... stars)
- Shoujo::Magical Girl (...stars)

Genres, settings, and audience all mixed up?
That seems rather confusing. Would seem logical to me to make separate lists for them, instead of mixing them up in one list.

...but, ehh, you're the boss. *shrug*
Last edited by Andemon on Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

pelican
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Post by pelican » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:58 pm

nwa wrote:I'm not so sure about the timelines... for example you can't say that Naruto is 'Past' since you can see advanced technology there, and Samurai 7 for example... it has mechas and airships... most fall into the 'alternative' universe or setting
The various "Time" options only apply if it's meant to be set somewhere in (a variant of) the past, present or future of the real world. They just don't get assigned such a setting.

Raptor
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Post by Raptor » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:59 am

Ok first for those interested in the post i highly suggest to use the link below (that doesnt work unless you copy paste. Why? simply because i wrote it in notepad and when i post the tree structure wich is extremely important is unreadable.
http://members.fortunecity.com/raptor45 ... _anidb.txt

So here if you dont want to use the link and are ready to not understand a thing.






------same as the .txt file but without the tabs X_X ---------------------------

I thought about this tree like structure and here is a sample of what it could look like. (here hentai could be a subgenre of something else like mature or not depending on what will be chosen to be the basic genres)
Note that this could mean that different subcategories coul have the same name while referring to things that are not exactly the same.
For example the demon from tentacles would be different from the demon in an other main category. Lets note that this isnt necessarily a bad thing.
Someone looking for demon action most probably isnt looking for young girl getting rapped and someone looking for the later is most probably not interested in demon getting killed by a battleaxe without having the time to do anything to the poor girls.
Also this could be shown the same way anime relations are shown wich mean that you see the main genres in the main page (with or without the stars) and if you want to know more you click the link and get the full tree like structure with the level of each beside the name.
for anime that have the same theme in many categories.
Example the demon does have the time to rape the girl but when he is done he will also put a decent fight before getting killed. It would be 2 different subcategories wich could be rated differently (thus allowing me to know how much time the demon spend raping and how much he uses for fighting)
Please also note that some subcategories dont really make sense in themselves but do make the whole thing much easier to read.
To really picture the graphic well, you can imagine the name of the anime left of the hentai and something like action at the same level than hentai and having his own structure

There is one problem with this idea thought and its that it doesnt handle exceptions well. For example if I happen to find an anime with demons that are having a family drama, i need to add demon as a subcategory of drama since it doesnt really fit in the demon subcategory of action or tentacles.
Of course if we want to push the idea to reach a level where its truly usuful, we need to allow for the search of only demon linked to the tentacles subgenres (i want tentacles demon rape), only the action subgenre(i want action with demon) or simply demon no matter where in the tree they may be(I want demon i dont care what they do).

This would need a rework on the way genre searchig is done but i think it could be done.
The hentai from tentacles would be the same demon than the action one but for the anime the demon entry would exist only as the full branch (thus allowing me to grade the 2 things the demon might do differently and keeping my tree understandable.
So if we want to talk the garden way i could search for a leaf or a branch



-upper body only
-hentai level -upper body + fogged pictures (example:urotsukidoji perfect collection)
- -golden or luminous dick
- -complete porn
-
-
- -rape
-type of sex -bondage
- -scato
- -mutual agreement
-
-
-hentai -
-
-
-
- -girl-boy
- -peoples -boy-boy
- - -girl-girl
- -
- -objects (dilco, vibrator, unspeacable things)
-things involved-
-
- -demon
-tentacles -mechanical
- -slimmy creatures
-
-
-well known anime characters


For those that may get confused by this huge post, here is an example of an hentai who would contain amost only sex,a brief action involving killing the demons, a bit of drama, quite a bit of tentacles rapes mainly done by demon but briefly by the wires of a crazed computer, and tons of lesbian action. i would set the following genre. Of course everybody get raped all the time except for 2 girls actually discover a passion toward each others. Normally, you dont see much during the sex scenes but when it involves tentacles you suddenly see everything there is to see.

drama 1/5
hentai 5/5
action 1/5
action:demon 1/5
hentai:things involved:tentacles 3/5
hentai:things involved:tentacles:demon 3/5
hentai:things involved:tentacles:mechanical 1/5
hentai:things involved:peoples:girl-girl 5/5
hentai:type of sex:rape 5/5
hentai:type of sex: mutual agreement 2/5
hentai:hentai level:complete porn 2/5
hentai:hentai level:upper body only 3/5

This would create a tree like this


-drama 1/5
-
-action 1/5 -demon 1/5
-
sandra story -
-
-
-
- -upperbody only 3/5
-hentai 5/5 -hentai level -complete porn 2/5
-
-type of sex -rape 5/5
- -agrement 2/5
-
-
-
- -peoples -girl-girl 5/5
-things involved
-tentacles 3/5 -demon 3/5
-mechanical 1/5

If i want to give a value to the amout of peoples involved in the sex i just need to add the genre
hentai:things involved:peoples 3/5

so the database completeness would be dependent on the user creating the entry and could be improved over the time.

this combined with a minimum level of importance could work fairly well

examples: search genre demon mimimum 3 gives the anime
search genre action:demon mimimum 3 doesnt give the anime
and so on

any thoughts?

and sorry for the freaking huge post

Rafal
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Post by Rafal » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:12 pm

Rar wrote: If you want to get into target-audience territory, it should have its own category:

Audience::
- Kodomo
- Shounen
- Shoujo
- Seinen
- Otoko
- Perverts
- Mina
I agree target audience should have its own category, but 'Otoko' looks a bit out of place imo, since it just means "man" (can be any kind of male person, young or old). So I would leave that one out and perhaps introduce the target audience 'Josei' ((young) adult women) instead, although I don't know of any anime targeted at adult women with the exception of some 'yaoi', but that would already fall under the 'pervert' subcategory....
Hmm, perhaps it would be better to divide the category 'perverts' into 'male perverts' and 'female perverts'? In that case we would end up with:

Audience::
- Kodomo
- Shounen
- Shoujo
- Seinen
- Male Perverts
- Female Perverts
- Mina (All, Everyone, No specific target)

egg
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Post by egg » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:44 pm

Here are Raptor's tree structures, I changed the tabs to spaces and put code tags around it to keep the formatting. Note, I don't necessarily agree, I was just doing it for clarity.

Code: Select all

                        -upper body only
        -hentai level   -upper body + fogged pictures (example:urotsukidoji perfect collection)
        -               -golden or luminous dick
        -               -complete porn
        -
        -                
        -               -rape
        -type of sex    -bondage
        -               -scato
        -               -mutual agreement
        -                        
        -
-hentai -
        -
        -
        -
        -                         -girl-boy        
        -               -peoples  -boy-boy
        -               -         -girl-girl
        -               -
        -               -objects (dildo, vibrator, unspeakable things)
        -things involved-
                        -          
                        -         -demon
                        -tentacles-mechanical
                        -         -slimy creatures
                        -
                        -
                        -well known anime characters

Code: Select all

                -drama 1/5
                -
                -action 1/5     -demon 1/5
                -
sandra story    -
                -
                -
                -
                -                                -upper body only 3/5
                -hentai 5/5     -hentai level    -complete porn  2/5
                                -
                                -type of sex     -rape 5/5
                                -                -agreement 2/5
                                -
                                -
                                -
                                -                -peoples        -girl-girl 5/5
                                -things involved 
                                                 -tentacles 3/5  -demon 3/5
                                                                 -mechanical 1/5

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:10 pm

ehehehe, my 'Perverts' wasn't entirely serious. Obviously, there is a specific market in mind for hentai and yaoi titles, but it might not be useful to try and enumerate their dingy bedrooms. I agree all the boundaries are somewhat blurred, I included 'otoko' largely becuase one of the large manga publishers serparates their male audience into three age groups. At any rate, I'm due a longer post on this, I'll make a new thread.... at some point... soonish.

Rar

egg
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Post by egg » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:45 pm

I guess it's about time to put in my own comments...

@exp, you said that a sub-category will not imply that a parent category is appropriate, but it would get tedious to have to select things like:

Action ***
Action::Martial Arts ***
Action::Martial Arts::Ninja ***
Action::Martial Arts::Ninja::Assasin ***

I believe that if a subcategory is selected then that implies that the parent category does apply at the same star rating or lower. So you could just select:
Action::Martial Arts::Ninja::Assasin ***

And that would imply that Action::Martial Arts also has three stars or less. Now if the parent category plays a bigger part in the story, then I could see adding it with more stars, for instance:
Action::Martial Arts*****
Action::Martial Arts::Ninja::Assasin ***

Overall, I think like Ultima's suggestions, I think the simple view should only show the topmost level of the category where it has 4 or 5 stars. So if the following categories are selected:
Action::Martial Arts*****
Action::Martial Arts::Ninja::Assasin ***
Comedy ***
Fantasy ****
The simple view would just show: Action, Fantasy

As far as the category types, I think that one has been left out. I agree with Genre, Setting and Target Audience, but there should also be one for an age rating, something that signifies the appropriate viewing audience. This is different than the Target Audience, something could be targeted towards Teenage Girls, but could have nothing objectionable in it, so could be viewable by young children. The Age Rating could be based on some known standard that could be looked up other places (Amazon for G, PG, PG-13, R, NC-17 also ANN has age ratings, ...). The target audience is useful, but is somewhat subjective (and in my opinion not specific enough) where the ratings we can get from other sources are somewhat standardized. Also with the Age Ratings sub-categories fit in better:
General Audiences
Older Children::Mild Violence
Older Children::Mild Language
Teenagers::Bloody Violence
Teenagers::Implied Nudity
Teenagers::Moderate Language

Well those aren't the best listings, I should go lookup some actual ratings, but I need to go atm... It's good enough for now.

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:22 pm

'moderate language' ahahahhaha. (side point, I'm against imposing american family values on anime in the form of 'age ratings', but fine with content indicators)

Rar

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exp
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Post by exp » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:26 pm

egg wrote:@exp, you said that a sub-category will not imply that a parent category is appropriate, but it would get tedious to have to select things like:
well there could be options on the add-category-to-anime page which would autoadd all parent categories too. (a bit like the chained-add checkbox on the anime relation page)

But IMHO the default should be that each category is added manually with it's own star-rating.

BYe!
EXP

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fahrenheit
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Post by fahrenheit » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:02 pm

this is just a silly question.. but aren't we planning on complicate without need the genres?

the current genre system is lacking in some aspects, true, but some of the ideias are just too much cumbersome..

i would opt for a more simplistic aproach to genres.

a list with all the genres (we currently have more than enough genres as it is) wich could be then used in 2 categories.

main genre: 1~3 genre(s)
sub genres: 0~X genre(s)

easy no?

Example:

atm Alien 9 has these genres:
Genres: Action, School

It could easly be converted to my "new" system as:
Main Genres: Action, School
Sub Genres: NULL

Wolf's Rain:
Genres: Action, Drama, Fantasy, Mystery

"new" system:
Main Genres: Fantasy,Drama,Action
Sub Genres: Mystery

This was the easy one :P

Now using the vote/rate aproach:

Every person that has marked a vote an a particular anime (not temp vote) can have the chance to vote in the genres for a particular anime.
Each user would get 10 points to distribute by the 35 current genres.
The top 3 genres would then be Main Genres and the 7 following genres would be Sub Genres [this would obviously be for layout reasons, a full list could be made available somewhere else].
Obviously mods can lock genres out of animes :P
And animes without the Hentai atribute don't show the hentai genre to vote.

What do you all think of this aproach to genres?

but regardless of that, like we actualy have some issues with speed and responsiveness of the server, we can't use the mylist reports, and although the genres are much more global than the reports, i would solve the current speed problems before introducing the genre system.

this is just my 2 cents.

egg
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Post by egg » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:05 am

Rar wrote:'moderate language' ahahahhaha. (side point, I'm against imposing american family values on anime in the form of 'age ratings', but fine with content indicators)
I didn't want to impose "American" family values on other people either, which is why I had a hard time writing it up. After looking at it again though, I took the indicators (straight from fcc.gov plus a few more) but left out the ages, so here it is.

Violence
Violence::Comedic
Violence::Mild
Violence::Moderate
Violence::Intense
Violence::Graphic
Launguage
Launguage::Infrequent Coarse
Launguage::Strong Coarse
Launguage::Crude Indecent Language
Sex
Sex::Sexual Situations
Sex::Intense Sexual Situations
Sex::Explicit Sexual Activity
Dialogue
Dialogue::Suggestive
Dialogue::Intensly Suggestive
Nudity
Nudity::Suggestive (No real nudity, pantsu shots, ...)
Nudity::Implied (Nothing is shown because of strategic camera angles)
Nudity::Topless
Nudity::Rear
Nudity::Frontal (Even if it is censored)
Nudity::Close-up (Even if it is censored)

I think the sex here is probably well enough defined, other stuff would probably fit better under subcategories of Hentai... BTW, as currently defined, Ecchi would be mapped to Sex::Sexual Situations, Hentai would be to Sex::Explicit Sexual Activity, and those borderline cases that are argued over would be Sex::Intense Sexual Situations.

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