I just tried out WebAOM...

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Skywalka
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I just tried out WebAOM...

Post by Skywalka » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:04 pm

I have the java runtime environment running anyway because of azureus.

I tried WebAOM out because I thought "what the heck, AoM hashes my files, it renames them, but is unable to add them to my mylist WTF?!?".

Now I have a program that does not have any memory holes, which does everything I need. Rename files, hash, add to mylist.

In my humble opinion you can stop working on your next version of AoM PetriW. You seem to have to work on other stuff that is more important in real life, so why not just drop AoM and focus on something really important.

I at least won't be needing it anymore as long as WebAOM is kept up to date or if you are able to put something together that has something to offer I would really need, without having errors, without memory holes, that is faster than WebAOM. And I guess that could be kind of hard.

I am sorry to be so brutally honest but I waited for a program that does not eat up 800 MB of ram for over a year now and it seems I got it.

AoM was acting up (again) and that's why. Sorry.

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Post by PetriW » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:44 pm

Nice you found an alternative. I don't really see the need to rip my work though, especially since the "can't add to mylist" stuff was to due to API bugs and that's been clearly stated on the forum.

But I digress, your outrageous exagerations just shows you want to tell me I'm an ass for not fixing aom for you.


So, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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Post by PetriW » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:19 pm

Oh yeah, this one was fun:
or if you are able to put something together that has something to offer I would really need, without having errors, without memory holes, that is faster than WebAOM
I will of course this second start working all through my summer vacation to satisfy YOUR needs.

Then I'll make the program autocrash when someone tries to log in using the username skywalka.

Skywalka
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Post by Skywalka » Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:17 am

First of I find it horribly funny that you consider "hashing, renaming and adding to mylist" something beeing (only) "YOUR (my) needs".

Frankly - if those things are just "my" needs then you might have missed 9 months of discussion on your own messageboard.

Additionally I don't understand why the API can handle WebAOM request and not those of AoM, but that is simply due to my lack of knowledge of the API. And I also did not notice anybody reporting it here on the forum. The last posting about API problems was 4 weeks ago.

Anyway. I simply wanted to point out the fact that somebody was able to put something together that is working and that you should maybe think about the fact that you have been working on your new AoM version for such a long time now that you should maybe think about just stopping.

I got the feeling that you try to put together a complete offline version of AniDB and that seems to be either too much work or too much to ask for or a combination of both. You should think about focusing on your real life. There are a limited number of people on this earth that really need your program and numerous features you are trying to put in for them, and in the end you won't even be asking for money for it. I simply feel that it is wrong to ask you for that.

AoM in it's current state was a good way to add files to AniDB but it always had this major problem of eating up an enormous amount of RAM and on the other hand it always ends up beeing totally fu**ed up. After at least three months you need to delete all of the files and re-start with a fresh installation (or just delete all the files in the kowai folder). I always thought the only thing I would want from a new version was what the old one did without those two problems and when you look at the current date you will find that you now have worked on that new version for at least 9 months if not longer, without getting to a state where it does that. So now somebody else published that and I simply informed you that I don't need you working on the next version of AoM anymore. I don't need it. You DON'T NEED TO WORK TO SATISFY MY NEEDS. That is ESPECIALLY what I tried to inform you about. You must have felt pressured by me and others in the past and I simply wanted to let you know IN TIME that you don't have that pressure from me anymore. That might suck, and you might feel offended that I won't pressure you anymore, that you put so much work into something that now some people won't want to use anymore but what would've been the better thing to do?

Wait another six or whatever months it will take you to put together the thing you think is the next big thing and then just tell you "Well I never needed it anyway anymore because I already started using that WebAoM thing months ago"? Or simply shutting up and not telling you about it? Yeah I guess you would've liked that more.

Come on. Be honest to yourself. You worked on this thing for so long now it must tire you. To be frank I think the way you responded speaks volumes, and I simply knew that you would respond this way. You are fed up with the way we have been pushing you, admit it, especially me. Now I'm off your back so what are you angry about? That you tried to put something together that has so many features I never needed and didn't finish that in time? I doubt it. Again - what are you angry about? All those people who wait for the stuff you put into the next AoM will still be waiting.

I simply felt that somebody should be so blunt and hit you in the head with the fact that you might be trying to get something out the door that is what we in germany call an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which you could translate into "egg laying milk giving whool pig", while all that is needed might be a plain and simple sheep.

I would never ask you to work during any vacation for me. It's quite the contrary. I want you to have more fun in your real life and maybe just stop putting so much time into something that in the end might not even be appreciated by everybody.

Like me now.

And look at your reaction. I knew you would be pissed. But simply imagine how much you would be pissed if in the end only five to ten people pat you on the back because they feel they have to because of all the work you had (honestly I thought that in the meantime next to your reply I would've gotten at least three others from people who scold me for "attacking" you), while silently thinking something else. Like "man I waited all this time and now it doesn't even do what the last version did" or "Man I thought it would have this and that" or, worst case scenario "Great, more features, but buggy like the last version". Or whatever.

Look at the joke egg made in the other thread about the 1.0 version. He said that one would be out maybe around 2010.

Call me an ass, but don't you think you might want to either scale down the stuff you want to put in the next version and simply shove something out the door or simply stop altogether and work on stuff that would bring you forward in real life?

Or even better: wouldn't it have been better not to tell anybody about a new version without first documenting the old one? Interim faq, interim wiki, and all the time it's because "the new version is on the way", which induces a need for that version. Everytime I asked, you told me "there is a new version out, it does more than the last one" while the new AoM _never ever_ did as much as the old one did, which _never ever_ made me use that new version. I installed it six times now, everytime a new version, and every time I found out it does not do what I need it to do. Now telling me that you won't cater to "YOUR (my) needs" is almost funny, because you should know what I want, and every time I asked for the new AoM you told me to try it out, and every time I found it not doing what I need it to do - which makes it useless. The current AoM always had it's flaws, but that "new" thing was _always_ useless for me, and you kept referring me to it. I mean come on. Look at the "AoM Lonhaul" thread. I started that countdown in OCTOBER of last year, and that was when people already knew for about 4 months that there would be a 0.6 version.

So you might want to light a candle on a small cake for one year of AoM 0.6 vaporware.

Oh, and if AoM would crash everytime I log on with my username I maybe would

- feel special because you did all that just for me
or
- think that all the work you put in for that feature might have delayed AoM 0.6 for another year and it was all "MY fault".
or
- might not notice the difference

:-P

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exp
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Post by exp » Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:38 am

After reading all that I feel like saying some words here too.

First AoM and WebAOM are completly different in scope. That begins with the underlying API (which works differently) and ends with the issues it's supposed to solve.

AoM _is_ an offline version of AniDB. And it was intended to be that from the very first day. WebAOM on the other hand is a light weight file hashing tool with adding/renaming support. But it's just that and it won't do any more than that.

A lot of the issues you're pointing out are, at least partly, caused by the restrictions I have set for _any_ full client (TCP API). AoM has to handle a huge amount of data as opposed to WebAOM which only transfers a couple of bytes every now and then.

Sure, most people who're looking for a client probably want to hash and add local files. WebAOM can do that. But AoM can to and it includes a lot of additional features which were _requested_ by actualy AoM users and which especially include features which will never be included into the website interface as they would put too much load on the server.

So in a way AoM is an integral part of AniDB and it always will be. Maybe there will be another full client some day, but so far all other programmers who've volunteered to write a full client have given up after comprehending the size of the challenge involved. Sure WebAOM is a nice addition, but it can't and never will replace AoM.

Just thought that this needed to be said. And no, I don't think that me and PetriW are the only ppl who think this way.

BYe!
EXP

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Post by PetriW » Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:23 am

Skywalka wrote:Frankly - if those things are just "my" needs then you might have missed 9 months of discussion on your own messageboard.
We'll see eventually. :)
Skywalka wrote:Additionally I don't understand why the API can handle WebAOM request and not those of AoM, but that is simply due to my lack of knowledge of the API. And I also did not notice anybody reporting it here on the forum. The last posting about API problems was 4 weeks ago.
It's quite simple, as exp explained I use the TCP api and WebAOM uses the UDP api. The UDP api is very simple and I even considered adding support for it to aom because it so little work. 90% of AOM has nothing to do with hashing, renaming and adding to mylist. Those are smaller parts that are supported because it's needed. (Well, AOM started out as a file hashing tool.)
A very large part of aom is downloading, parsing and displaying AniDB. I don't know if you've seen the 0.6 -105% done version but it shows where I want the client to go. If I wanted it to do only what WebAoM does I could chunk out a version over the weekend but thankfully I don't have to since Epoximator made WebAoM.
Skywalka wrote:Anyway. I simply wanted to point out the fact that somebody was able to put something together that is working and that you should maybe think about the fact that you have been working on your new AoM version for such a long time now that you should maybe think about just stopping.
WebAOM has been around quite a long time, AOM does what it does for me without me even touching it and since I have a decent amount of ram and a HT processor AOM doesn't pose a problem for me under any circumstances. For me it sits in the background doing what WebAOM does without me noticing until I want to.

WebAOM is great and I checked it out thoroughly when it was released and I check it now and then but it lacks most of the things I use aom for.
Skywalka wrote:I got the feeling that you try to put together a complete offline version of AniDB and that seems to be either too much work or too much to ask for or a combination of both. You should think about focusing on your real life. There are a limited number of people on this earth that really need your program and numerous features you are trying to put in for them, and in the end you won't even be asking for money for it. I simply feel that it is wrong to ask you for that.
Aom 0.6 has been an extreme learning experience for me. I've focused on fixing EVERYTHING that was wrong with 0.5, every little complaint about 0.5 has been thought about when I made 0.6.
The base architecture of the clients are vastly different and 0.6 is simply a way to learn how to cope with large amounts of data in a multithreading client.
Coding is my real life, I spend at least 8 hours a day 5 days a week doing it since that's what I do at work. 0.6 has helped me tremendously at work and as such it was worth it. Time lost or not, I use aom 0.5 every day and it has so far probably hashed, verified and added over 11000 files to my mylist. I can't even imagine doing that manually.

AoM also autocreqs, that's something WebAOM doesn't as I understand it. don't have any exact numbers but I'm fairly certain most md4 and sha1 checksums come from AoM.
Take that as my small contribution to AniDB.
Skywalka wrote:AoM in it's current state was a good way to add files to AniDB but it always had this major problem of eating up an enormous amount of RAM and on the other hand it always ends up beeing totally fu**ed up. After at least three months you need to delete all of the files and re-start with a fresh installation (or just delete all the files in the kowai folder).
The latest version does not have this problem from what I've seen. The whole need to restart after X months should be a thing of the past.
The problems now seem to be corruption of the datafiles due to API instability. I can live with that, redownloading the dump files overnight is never something I really found to be a problem.
Skywalka wrote:I always thought the only thing I would want from a new version was what the old one did without those two problems and when you look at the current date you will find that you now have worked on that new version for at least 9 months if not longer, without getting to a state where it does that.
I work on it on spare time with no help, even when people have offered to help they haven't followed through very far to this date. It's all neat you make demands on speed but I do this at my own pace as it's only me working on it.
0.6 doesn't have autocreq and stuff because I don't trust it enough yet. The client itself has been far better than 0.5 for a very long time.
Skywalka wrote:So now somebody else published that and I simply informed you that I don't need you working on the next version of AoM anymore. I don't need it. You DON'T NEED TO WORK TO SATISFY MY NEEDS. That is ESPECIALLY what I tried to inform you about. You must have felt pressured by me and others in the past and I simply wanted to let you know IN TIME that you don't have that pressure from me anymore.
Please realize that as I've stated a couple of times people asking for stuff only makes me take longer releasing it. The more a pain in the but they are the less likely it's to be released.
Any pressure there's been about releasing 0.6 is due to me being annoyed with lack of features in 0.5, end of story.
Skywalka wrote:That might suck, and you might feel offended that I won't pressure you anymore, that you put so much work into something that now some people won't want to use anymore but what would've been the better thing to do?
Please realize that it's neat that people use the client, I'm flattered some find it useful and I'm even more flattered that people actually idle in an irc channel dedicated to it. But as stated, aom is created purely for my own needs. All the features in 0.5 that I don't use were created by BennieB and he used those. ;)
Skywalka wrote:Wait another six or whatever months it will take you to put together the thing you think is the next big thing and then just tell you "Well I never needed it anyway anymore because I already started using that WebAoM thing months ago"? Or simply shutting up and not telling you about it? Yeah I guess you would've liked that more.
If WebAOM does everything you need it to do you never really understood what my main goal with AoM was.
Skywalka wrote:Come on. Be honest to yourself. You worked on this thing for so long now it must tire you. To be frank I think the way you responded speaks volumes, and I simply knew that you would respond this way. You are fed up with the way we have been pushing you, admit it, especially me. Now I'm off your back so what are you angry about? That you tried to put something together that has so many features I never needed and didn't finish that in time? I doubt it. Again - what are you angry about? All those people who wait for the stuff you put into the next AoM will still be waiting.
I spend most my time doing other stuff. If I truly focused on 0.6 it would have been out more 7-8 months ago. But 0.5 works, it does most of what I need so I work on 0.6 when I feel like it.
And what I'm angry about is whining and making outrageous exaggerations. I don't mind you saying omg where's the 0.6, I mind you whining about stuff that's been fixed and stuff I have no control over.
A recent version of 0.5 uses about 200mb ram, very little of this is actually leaked memory. The main ram use in aom is the treeviews, which have been replaced with something far better in 0.6.
Skywalka wrote:I simply felt that somebody should be so blunt and hit you in the head with the fact that you might be trying to get something out the door that is what we in germany call an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" which you could translate into "egg laying milk giving whool pig", while all that is needed might be a plain and simple sheep.
:D
I think I've beaten on that statement enough already to comment further on it.
Skywalka wrote:I would never ask you to work during any vacation for me. It's quite the contrary. I want you to have more fun in your real life and maybe just stop putting so much time into something that in the end might not even be appreciated by everybody.

Like me now.
Why thank you, might it not have occured to you that I WANTED to work on it because it was fun and taught me stuff I wanted to know?
I don't expect AoM to please everyone, I expect it to please me. :D
Skywalka wrote:And look at your reaction. I knew you would be pissed. But simply imagine how much you would be pissed if in the end only five to ten people pat you on the back because they feel they have to because of all the work you had (honestly I thought that in the meantime next to your reply I would've gotten at least three others from people who scold me for "attacking" you), while silently thinking something else. Like "man I waited all this time and now it doesn't even do what the last version did" or "Man I thought it would have this and that" or, worst case scenario "Great, more features, but buggy like the last version". Or whatever.
If only 5 people said neat that'd wouldn't be far from how many people have said neat about 0.5, that's maybe 10 or 15 people.
Skywalka wrote:Look at the joke egg made in the other thread about the 1.0 version. He said that one would be out maybe around 2010.
And so will Longhorn.
Skywalka wrote:Call me an ass, but don't you think you might want to either scale down the stuff you want to put in the next version and simply shove something out the door or simply stop altogether and work on stuff that would bring you forward in real life?
0.5 was shoved out the door, it's working and doing what it's intended to do. There's no real need for 0.6.
Skywalka wrote:Or even better: wouldn't it have been better not to tell anybody about a new version without first documenting the old one?
The wiki is there, if you want documentation on 0.5 create it.
I don't need the documentation, you do, I created the wiki because I hope others will help with it. Which they did.
But wait a minute, here's someone whining about ME not creating documentation for 0.5. So please, as you're such a fan of WebAoM create a link on the front page of the wiki for that please. Go out to the world and preach brother! Preach the greatness of WebAOM for adding stuff to your mylist. (For honestly, if that's all you need it's GREAT! Epoximator did a great work with it.)
Skywalka wrote:Interim faq, interim wiki, and all the time it's because "the new version is on the way", which induces a need for that version. Everytime I asked, you told me "there is a new version out, it does more than the last one" while the new AoM _never ever_ did as much as the old one did, which _never ever_ made me use that new version. I installed it six times now, everytime a new version, and every time I found out it does not do what I need it to do.
Then don't use it.
Skywalka wrote:Now telling me that you won't cater to "YOUR (my) needs" is almost funny, because you should know what I want, and every time I asked for the new AoM you told me to try it out, and every time I found it not doing what I need it to do - which makes it useless. The current AoM always had it's flaws, but that "new" thing was _always_ useless for me, and you kept referring me to it. I mean come on. Look at the "AoM Lonhaul" thread. I started that countdown in OCTOBER of last year, and that was when people already knew for about 4 months that there would be a 0.6 version.
And I agree, 0.6 is useless, but people testing it nails out bugs. People have helped translating it to a few other languages which helped me in testing.
Oh yeah, we knew there would be a Longhorn pretty soon after XP too. ;)
Skywalka wrote:So you might want to light a candle on a small cake for one year of AoM 0.6 vaporware.
Thanks!
Skywalka wrote:Oh, and if AoM would crash everytime I log on with my username I maybe would

- feel special because you did all that just for me
or
- think that all the work you put in for that feature might have delayed AoM 0.6 for another year and it was all "MY fault".
or
- might not notice the difference
We'll see, it would after all only take 10 seconds or so to add. ;)

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Post by Skywalka » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:22 am

PetriW wrote: Coding is my real life, I spend at least 8 hours a day 5 days a week doing it since that's what I do at work. 0.6 has helped me tremendously at work and as such it was worth it. Time lost or not, I use aom 0.5 every day and it has so far probably hashed, verified and added over 11000 files to my mylist. I can't even imagine doing that manually.
:-)

It has done that for me too. Problem is - I never used it for anything else than adding files to my mylist. The reasons are simple - AniDB is almost always online, and I did not want to use AoM as a replacement. I think it has been two or three times when I used AoM to find a file (the only file for instance that had no state at all, would've been a pain in the ass to find that one no the web in AniDB back then, don't know whether that has changed since then).

Anyway, I think I knew that AoM helped you develop more skills, and that it always will be a pet project for you.

On the other hand that basic feature, staying online, checking my files and not crashing my computers - that's something AoM 0.5 isn't able to do. I also have a lot of RAM, a fast CPU, but I also have to run Photoshop, Excel, Word, Firefox, my banking client, Internet Explorer, my tax program, mirc and some other programs like my virus scanner. And in the last half year I more than once had to kill AoM so I could work again because one program or the other ran out of resources. That's what got me angry. That's why I wanted a new version of AoM.

What I just wanted to tell you - I won't nag you anymore, I got what I need. Now if you publish a nice working client, preferably without any bugs because of a long and extensive bug hunting process, then I will most likely use it instead of AniDB dumps (exports) in HTML. Because I like the way AoM 0.5 behaved and what I could do, I like the new design and I guess it will eat a lot less RAM and won't have a database file that will blow up over time.

But from now on until then I won't check here anymore and look for a new version that often, and I guess it would be a good idea to point the users who need just what I need (the trinity of hashing, adding, renaming) to WebAoM so they stop naging you, and all the others you should tell that it's done when it's done and currently you have better stuff to do, although that might not be right that much. That way people don't expect it to come out just like I did not expect AoM to come out back two years ago.

I was very happy when I got the first version of AoM, since it hashed my stuff, renamed it, and added the files to my mylist. I guess it's because I have been such a long-term user that I did not really notice the other features that much :-)

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Post by Skywalka » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:28 am

One other thing: I don't have the time at the moment to document anything or add creqs to anidb - did not have the time for quite a while now, and I can hardly keep up with the downloads AniDB throws my way :-)

I would love to be a more active part of the community of AniDB clients, I'd love to write into the wiki more often but found it frustrating when people correct what I write (sorry), so I guess I'll refrain from doing anything about it for quite a while, but who knows maybe sometime later this year :-)

Anyway, thanks for the nice chat, felt good to talk about things a bit and you know once AoM 0.6 (Vista? ;-) ) hits the surface I will most likely download it, let it download the current AniDB database with my mylist status and then save the directory directly to a backup DVD in case anything should happen to AniDB. And I can wait for that, in fact I'll be able to wait years for that.

I won't push you anymore :-)

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Post by PetriW » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:49 am

:D

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Post by e-Viper » Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:48 pm

Latest version seems to work alot better then previous ones (long boottime due to my known files layout).
I guess most people stopped bugging petriw bcs the need is alot less now.

I can understand that he want to take his time to make it how he wants it and make it bugfree.

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Post by fahrenheit » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:55 am

Skywalka this wasn't a nice thread and all..

In any case my 2cents..

First off aom is like was said, diferent from webaom, if all you want is hashing and renaming files, webaom is just for you, i also use webaom when i want something like just hashing files of a single folder and stuff, but when there's a need to hash tons of files in a folder with subfolders filled with allready hashed files i would use aom for sure, because it keeps track of your files it gives you some degree of file info and altough undocumented some of its features can't compare with other clients, and in case of something undocumented you would ask arround, the reply would arise in no time.

Second, although your opinion of aom 0.6, i've tested a lot of test versions of it, if you notice there's a lot of tracker entries about stuff i found buggy or stuff that i wanted in 0.6 that over time were solved or introduced in new versions of aom 0.6.

Third, aom and webaom are made from users of anidb in their spare time for users of anidb, you know that you only have the chance of this thread because of that single feature, try doing that in microsoft with all the bugs that windows has for at least 20 years..
(also i think ms renamed longhorn for windows vista and it's comming next year)

Fourth, software is for users, the issue is that once it's developed for more than 1 or 2 users, the user part gets out of hand and it's rather hard to satisfy, unless that user is Skywalka, in that case we can rest assured he will inform us about what is best for us and will tell us to ditch months of work because he has just found another alternative.

that's all i have to say.

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Post by egg » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:25 pm

I guess I will add my couple of pennies as well.

Well, being nice is not one of Skywalka's strong points. Anyone that has been around a while should learn not to take him too seriously. I frequently have agreed with his point of view, but rarely with the way he exrpresses it.

First of all I do appreciate what PetriW's work. I apologize if I have ever offended him. I do bug him once in a while, but I try to keep it to once a month...

Secondly let me state, that I do not agree with PetriW's strive for perfection before release. 0.5 has had enough bugs that it has required a few patches, but there are still a large number of known bugs that remain. These remaining bugs make it largely unusable for most situations, I use it just to hash/rename/autocreq my files.

Waiting until everything is perfect before release will take forever because it will never be perfect. I don't know how far along PetriW is with his internal versions (I assume he has functionality that he has not released to the IRC preview version yet), but I would assume that something could be put together.

If his internal version isn't that much further along, it would be nice to see a preview that has some meat to it.

I would like to see somewhat of a 0.6 release as long as the bugs are no worse than 0.5 then I would say it is OK, OR if features could incrementally be added to 0.6. For instance if 0.6 could do renaming, autocreqing, adds to mylist, ... Since it can already do hashing it would appear that it could do at least as well as 0.5 on the first two. Maybe the interface would not support English renaming yet, but it already supports whatever 0.5 does...

I guess I would have handled it another way, I know that PetriW changed to a different core, changing the DB and other key components. I would have moved things to that core with essentially the same functionality as was in 0.5 and left off other enhancements until later. I believe that PetriW is trying to both at the same time...

Now that I have had my say, PetriW can do what he wants. I'm too lazy to write my own client, so I have to wait for what I can get...

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Post by PetriW » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:21 pm

egg wrote:I guess I would have handled it another way, I know that PetriW changed to a different core, changing the DB and other key components. I would have moved things to that core with essentially the same functionality as was in 0.5 and left off other enhancements until later. I believe that PetriW is trying to both at the same time...
The problem is that said core broke almost everything. I do copy over old stuff where appropriate of course.
In the old design the core rould accoss the entire db almost instantly whereas in the new version it can only access a few hundred pieces of information a second (and then it's too heavy). That's the price for less ram isage.
Basic things like displaying node data, sorting and expanding nodes works very very different.

The instability of the old api also had to be fixed (accesss violations anyone?) while not being too slow or too ram consuming and also had to update the GUI without totally killing peoples computers. (hi all you people without HT)
That broke autocreqing and autoadding to mylist. Exp also has some requests in this area which makes it harder for me. (He dislikes me connecting to anidb too much, he prefers aom grouping commands. Aka he wants me to delay your mylist edits.)

File renaming, well I just haven't copied it yet.


Right now I'm working on TTH, which (of course) isn't working eventhough it should. :P Stuff like that takes time.

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