Dual Audio or Original Audio only?

talk about your favorite anime here

Moderator: AniDB

Which you do prefer?

Original audio only
15
68%
Duel audio, bigger files so the quality doesnt suffer
6
27%
Duel audio, same size files, reduce quality abit
1
5%
 
Total votes: 22

taltamir
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Dual Audio or Original Audio only?

Post by taltamir » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:24 am

question, which would you prefer... a duel audio anime, or only the original audio without the dubs? (where its the same encoding, so we are talking about having a smaller file without the dub, not higher quality)

I am actually wondering how many people prefer their anime dubless rather then duel audio... its a perfect example of "just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD"... I have been remuxing, well, everything I have, to get rid of the dubs (and I upload it, I even made two torrents of completed animes)

NOTE: for those who have no idea what those techamawordies mean. ReMuxing is NOT ReEncoding, ReMuxing is lossless (there is no generation loss, in fact it can make it better by improving the container file, like converting ogm to mkv).

Removing the dubs from a series saves at LEAST 300MB... many times much more. (15MB an episode on extremely very well done encodes, 40MB on average encodes). Also alot of the times the dub's are set to be played first, and who wants that?

EDIT: corrected title from duel to dual...
Last edited by taltamir on Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Der Idiot
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Post by Der Idiot » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:46 am

dvds costs like 20c and you can set the preference for the first to be played audiostream in haali and or any decent player like zoom or mpc

to cut it short you suck for reencoding stuff where there never was a need for. :roll:

mitchelll7
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Post by mitchelll7 » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:46 am

Well i like some anime in Dub and some in sub.

So i say both and i like high frame casue it allways look better.

taltamir
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Post by taltamir » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:53 pm

Der Idiot wrote:dvds costs like 20c and you can set the preference for the first to be played audiostream in haali and or any decent player like zoom or mpc

to cut it short you suck for reencoding stuff where there never was a need for. :roll:
ReMUXING not ReEncoding... completely different process... Remuxing is lossless and simply adjusts the container file, reencoding actually changes the audio/video streams, replacing them with a copy thats one generation older. Only retards reencode stuff :roll:


Also its not only about storage size, yes DVDs are plentiful. But:
1. You can't upload from your DVD collection, you can from your HDD.
2. It takes longer to download / upload files that are bigger. Much much longer. And that means less people a day can upload / download each individual file.

PetriW
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Post by PetriW » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:30 pm

taltamir wrote:2. It takes longer to download / upload files that are bigger. Much much longer. And that means less people a day can upload / download each individual file.
Much much longer? You on 4KiB/s? Get a real internet connection!

taltamir
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Post by taltamir » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:13 am

actually... 10mbs down/0.7mbs up.

But when I upload to 10 people at once at LEAST each one of them gets about 5-10KiBs. At which speed 15-50 MB mean several hours.

Also when I download I normally get 5 KiB/s from most people, unless its from a website or quality FTP... but those are RARE for anime. Anime is mostly downloaded through p2p applications where other people often upload very very slowly.


So far the votes are at 7 to 3... Lets see how this develops.

egg
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Post by egg » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:21 am

p2p works much better with a number of sources. You are just creating files most people would consider corrupted (not the original release by the group) and sourcing them yourself. Most people would get better downloads if you just stuck with the original release.

p2p is also not usually about pure speed, it is true that rarely you get a particular file from a particular user at high speed, but with enough sources you can get good speeds for a d/l. If you have leftover bandwidth because you are limiting it to 10 low speed users, then it is wasted bandwidth. It would be better to allow more users and they might get slightly lower bandwidth, but it will help share the files more widely and the peers can d/l from each other.

If you are concerned with sharing, then sharing original files is better than creating your own versions and sharing those. It may help a few users who like your versions, but is worse for the community as a whole. If you are creating your own encodes from your DVD's, then you can do as you wish.

Personally I watch Japanese with subtitles, but I will d/l dual language versions because they are frequently the best encodes that have a decent number of sources. Also a fair number of people borrow my discs, and some of them do not like subtitles. The difference between the file sizes is basically inconsequential.

taltamir
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Post by taltamir » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:18 am

It is correct that multiple sources allow for better downloading. However as far as I can tell anime is mainly shared through Direct Connect, and to a lesser degree through Bit Torrent. With edonkey (emule actually) forming a the smallest of shares and other networks being insignificant.

DC doesn't go well with multiple source downloading, and things tend to download from one person, and I am not limiting myself to uploading to slow users, rather 0.7mb/s translates to roughly 90KiB/s (bytes are different then bits). And when 10 or so people download...

The uploading to many users at once is a requirement of both bit torrent and DC. So thats just how it works out.

The basic notion of "well maybe someone else whom I will give it to might want duel audio" is the reason I originally went for duel audio releases when they first became possible, but I quickly realized that I don't know anyone who wants dubs or would want dubs. That theoretical someone can also go ahead and download their own stuff.

Since I upload 5 GB a day, every day, I think it is significant that I improve the rate of my upload by decreasing the size (its why I also recompress all zips and rars at max compression)

Keep in mind that I am not reencoding the files here. So the quality is the same, only now its a smaller, better file (so the video and audio quality remains the same, but the quality of the file went up so to speak). Actually some of them are in ogm container format, which means converting them to MKV not only makes them smaller (by cutting overhead from rought 8 to 1 MB) it also takes less CPU power to process those files, etc.
If you are creating your own encodes from your DVD's, then you can do as you wish.
I can do with the files as I wish either way... The notion that its "better for the community" if only the "original" files are dissimated is the idea that the original encoders somehow know absolutely best what is, well, best. (and there are plenty of groups who make really stupid and useless rips, so thats obviously not true...) I personally think any inclusion of dubs is an error, and apperantly I am not alone in that thought. Some time ago the most popular GXP torrent on most sites was the a4e release with about 5 seeds and 30 downloaders at any given time... in a couple of days my torrent of remuxed a4e gxp without the english dubs went to about 3 seeds and 30 downloaders at any given time (while the other one stayed the same, the one I made has been rotating seeds and leechers too, its not the same people, and its slowly growing in the amounts of people who go for it)... and its not like I didn't explain in the descriptions how those are different. So its about as popular, maybe it will end up more popular, maybe not, we will see. But alot of people prefer it to the "original" thus far.
Some groups go as far as not releasing corrected files for anything less the catastrophic to prevent diversification... Refusing to correct incorrect language tags, spelling errors, and minor mistakes. Basically, people would go to the effort of downloading the newer, better, releases... even if it means it will take longer to download because there are less sources for each file (as you said, p2p is not ONLY about download speed... specifically, I think quality matters more, which is why I remux, but would never reencode)

PetriW
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Post by PetriW » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:16 am

This whole discussion is nullified because you create a new file noone else has, a corrupt version of the file even if it plays. You add a new file most users can't or shouldn't use.

An audio track for 20 minutes is seriously insignificant in the whole of things, especially once more stuff is HD.

From an anidb perspective, any user who has your file has a corrupt file that should not be indexed, if you spent some time considering this you would realize why. If it's a problem on a personal level to accept this, maybe you should talk with a4e and ask them to remux and release.
taltamir wrote:But alot of people prefer it to the "original" thus far.
How many of those users know it's not an original a4e file? What about the people who wan't the dubbed audio, are you not discriminating against those? That you place original in quotation marks shows you do not realize your files are NOT original in any way anymore, they've been tampered with and are not official or original anymore.
If three people remux, they'll most likely get 3 different files, now your kindness has spawned 3 files which further dilutes the originals. All this to save a perceived few minutes.


Also, your poll question is flawed, most users will vote first and read your post second. Hence you get most people voting for original audio rather than original file. If you want a better answer to the question you're actually asking you should have the options:
Original file with original languages, even if larger
Modified file with original languages, lower quality to save size
Modified file with only original audio, remuxed to save quality


And finally, if you truly have a problem with file size, pick a group that releases small files, unlike a4e which often release files twice as large as some other groups in order to get higher quality. The quality difference should not be large enough to motivate remuxing perfectly fine files.

AnimeOtaku
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Post by AnimeOtaku » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:50 am

PetriW wrote:
An audio track for 20 minutes is seriously insignificant in the whole of things, especially once more stuff is HD.
(Not if it is an ac3 5.1 track and a normal video.)

But I agree with you. Disk space isn't so expensive anymore and soon there will be Blueray and HD DVD and 1TB hdd. Ok there will be bigger video, because of HDTV. But not so fast and more and more is encoded in h.264, which uses less space, but more CPU power.

And if we see more in the future, there will be an HVD, which can theoretically can save up to 3,9 TB

taltamir
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Post by taltamir » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:38 am

I disagree about the corrupt, its not corrupt (defective due to transfer errors), its a generic file. Or rather, an official release by ME (I just need a name :P, its not like I don't have any experience in the scene...). Corrupt files tend to have missing parts due to literally corrupt data.

They should all know its remuxed because I put it in the torrent name and explained it in the description.

I am "discriminating" against people who wants dubs the same way I am discriminating against people who want beastiality porn by not sharing any (in other words, I am not being discriminatory). I may share whatever I want, they may download whatever they want that I am willing to share. I don't forbid them to share and download dubs, I just don't provide those myself. Should I download series I don't like just so I can upload it to people so I don't "discriminate"? How about downloading in languages I don't understand? Should I download a german dub with no subtitles so that I am not discriminating againsts germans? How about a raw so I am not discriminating against people who hate subtitles and speak fluent japanese? :roll:

I am however making it simpler for people who like me don't WANT duel audio to have a single audio file, and for them to share that single audio file instead of being forced to share the duel audio one because its all that is available. That DOES result in less sources available for the duel audio file, but more sources available for the single audio file. This in itself is not a bad thing but a good thing, since I give people the option to choose what they way. There are still going to be the same X amount of copies of the file around (if not more), its just that some are the duel and some are the single audio kind.

My poll question isn't flawed because this wasn't meant as a discussion about the value of remuxing, but asking if people prefer duel or single audio releases. IE, this isn't asking people weather I should remux things, but asking them weather release groups should even include the dubbed audio in their release in the first place. Which is exactly what people would understand from the poll on first reading it.

Actually a4e releases quite manageably sized files. Smaller then many other groups actually. I don't want smaller file sizes, I just don't want to WASTE BANDWIDTH (to a much lesser degree HDD space) uploading the dubs.

As for "you create a new file noone else has" Yes they do, I upload 5 GB a day every day and I make torrents of whole series IF I think they are absolutely top notch stuff. (non top notch stuff slowly dissimates through DC to individual users)...

My experience with creating my own "modified" and "improved" packages of manga was that my systems were so popular that files I made often became the norm. And again, I also worked as part of an "official" group...

Keep in mind that a fan scanlation/subbing/ripping project is not exactly "official" in any way shape or form if you think about it. You want the official stuff you buy it at a store from the licensed distributer.
AnimeOtaku wrote:
PetriW wrote:
An audio track for 20 minutes is seriously insignificant in the whole of things, especially once more stuff is HD.
(Not if it is an ac3 5.1 track and a normal video.)

But I agree with you. Disk space isn't so expensive anymore and soon there will be Blueray and HD DVD and 1TB hdd. Ok there will be bigger video, because of HDTV. But not so fast and more and more is encoded in h.264, which uses less space, but more CPU power.

And if we see more in the future, there will be an HVD, which can theoretically can save up to 3,9 TB
Correct, its alot of space for a 5.1 track... But even the absolutely best encodes I have seen, the a4e encode for tenchi muyou GXP which was a mere 12-15MB an episode per audio track added up for all 26 episodes taking 350MB... Which is almost the same size as TWO EPISODES (well, about 1.7). Thats a huge difference. On an average encode the audio is 50% the size of the video. And on BAD encodes I have seen audio which was more then twice the size of the video (worse example was 20MB video with 150MB audio... the audio was uncompressed and the video was compressed to a fault... and that was a reencode btw) :roll:

PetriW
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Post by PetriW » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:56 am

Well, from experience 70% or so want the japanese audio, 30% want the dubs, on anidb I bet a significant portion of users prefer the japanese audio while on other communities you'll find people who find dubs better. a4e has decided to cater to both groups with a single release, floats their boat I guess.

As long as you or anyone else don't add these files to anidb as a4e releases I guess all is well, I doubt anyone around here cares about people sharing modified files one some bittorrent site, it seems to me like quite a significant portion are modified / corrupt anyway.

And as for a name, just make a group named "REMUXED" or something. :P

Nice comparison between dubs and bestiality porn, I think it's quite fitting because both are usually as discusting... but that still doesn't mean to me remuxes are valid original files! ;)

And your poll question is still flawed because you ask one question then add additional info needed to make the correct decision in the post.


Finally, AniDB regards official releases by groups as official releases by groups. Files modified are no longer official releases by said groups. Just as Mangareactor releases are not official releases by the original group eventhough Mangareactor may have better organization, better quality and better packaging. The files are however official Mangareactor releases. ;)



Edit: And 350mb isn't huge! ;)
Edit 2: In case people didn't understand, I'd like to clarify that I abhor dubbed anime. Original audio ONRY!

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:54 am

Perhaps a single sentence version will get through the iron skull:

By attempting to establish share for an altered version rather than just helping seed the original, you are already 'wasting' far more bandwidth than you'll ever be able to save from the bits you cut out of it.

Also, it's dual, you horrible tard.

Rar

egg
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Post by egg » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:33 pm

taltamir wrote:I disagree about the corrupt, its not corrupt (defective due to transfer errors), its a generic file. Or rather, an official release by ME (I just need a name :P, its not like I don't have any experience in the scene...). Corrupt files tend to have missing parts due to literally corrupt data.:
Only if you have the permission of the original group, otherwise you are a corrupter [disseminating files that do not match the original release] or a thief [passing someone else's work off as your own]. Even if you clearly mark what you did to the file, that does not mean the next person will keep the information or present it when they reshare it, soon as far as the rest of the world is concerned, there is a new file of an unknown source. It is even more confusing if the file has some indication of the original group, because now we have files of 2 different sizes that are from the same group for the same file. This leads to a situation that can be challenging to figure where a file came from. I would be willing to bet that the mods have already had people asking about some of your files, trying to figure out how they should be classified.

It is obvious that we are not going to convince you. I realize that you think you are doing this to help others, and that is probably true with a few people, but overall it hurts more than it helps.

What about a user who is new to anime, they come across your files and download them. Later they discover anidb, then they find out that all of their files either are not in the database or are corrupt because they do not match the original version. I originally would have thought your files were great, but after I found out they were not the right versions, I would be upset. I have some anime that I have d/l again because I did not know what I was doing at the beginning, this does not save bandwidth...

That is one of the main reasons that I use anidb is to ensure that I can get files that are not corrupted, if I just search for a file and d/l it I can never be quite sure if it was corrupted before. Many times there are multiple versions of the same file and the uncorrupted one may not even be the one with the most sources. For me anidb helps figure out which files I want, and if a number of people do this, then the files should be sourced well and we can get a good file. Rather than a bunch of people d/l multiple versions of a file to see which one works (which is even more wasted bandwidth).

Again, if you have your own group and are doing your own work, do what you want. If you are using somebody else's work, then do not modify it and pass it on as either their's or yours. You are doing a disservice to the original group and the community.

And if you think the reception here is less than rosy, this is nothing compared to an original group that went through a lot of work to make a release only you to mangle it and spread your mangled version.

taltamir
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Post by taltamir » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:58 pm

I applaud your dedicated to the intellectual property rights of fansubbing groups. However, had I cared about the right to intellectual property I would not have shared anything, referring people to buy the things so that the original author is payed for their work!!!

The poll is asking what kind of releases you like, not what kind of modified files you want. I have seen groups release only original audio, dual audio where the video is the same file as their single audio releases. And dual audio where they made the video smaller to accommodate more streams while keeping overall file size at exactly 200MB. Apparently so far 12 people prefer single audio, and 3 prefer dual audio that results in a bigger file. I hope many many more people would vote on this and release groups would take note (the kind that releases dual audio not because they like it, but for the benefit of the imaginary "them" who want it... don't say they don't exist, because I thought exactly like that for a year or so after first learning of dual audio's existence... I abandoned that notion about the same time where I started deleting port I didn't actually LIKE from my collection)

Thank you for correcting me about the spelling of dual, I honestly mean that with no sarcasm, by correcting me you helped me learn and improve and I am better for it.

The idea of making a group called remuxed HAS passed my mind... however I knew that by doing so I would actually claim their work as my own, and I recognize that remuxing is much less work the ripping. I did not want to downplay their work in such a manner... However, I said myself that I don't care a whiff about intellectual property, so maybe thats somewhat contradicting myself; but rather, I care not for the ownership but I do like to give credit for it despite taking it and using it in a manner that the original creator would not approve of.

I see one point of interest in the argument of wasted bandwidth. That people who are obsessed with having the "official" release might download my files, realize they are not on anidb, and then download other files to replace them, thus wasting bandwidth. I hope my clear and detailed (yet concise) explanation would dissuade such behavior but it is quite possible that people would begin downloading without reading any descriptions. That is indeed unfortunate, but not sufficient to dissuade me.


Back to the idea of calling it remuxed... or rather, a group called remuxers or some such... if I do that, what would be your recommendation in regards to indexing those files in anidb? should I include the original releaser's name as well? they did not willingly or even knowingly participate in this and might not want their name attached to such, on the other hand, some would consider claiming it purely as remuxed would be "stealing" their work from them...
Last edited by taltamir on Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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