what is an anime and what is not

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Ultima
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Post by Ultima » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:15 am

Whether I'm irritated or not is besides the point. Point is 3 pages and we're still at square one ;) Don't you think that's unproductive? Unfortunately, for now skywalka it appears as though I'm bashing you - and I did, and I'm sorry. I'm kinda annoyed by everyone, especially since the only two mods that have commented thus far are nwa and wahaha :P And to top it off, like nwa said, I'm getting all sorts of mail bugging me why it was deleted. It just happens that you're like one of the most active in this thread, and you happened to be the one I vented on. Sorry if I offended you. However, there is some good news. Internally we're starting to discuss something to prevent something like this from happening again. Something along the lines of when an anime is about to be deleted, users will be notified and may be pointed to a forum thread to discuss whether it should/shouldn't be delete. It's still in the works though ;)

Anyways, it seems what wahaha told me earlier is coming to pass. We're searching for a definitive answer, but it's gonna be very hard to come up with one that everyone is going to agree with. I wouldn't mind just limiting AniDB to anime that have an Asian company behind it, and booting out all the American ones. I'm up for exceptions to this idea, but the question is how far should we take it. And about Robotech, many consider it anime, and apparently many others don't consider it anime - so I think it's still up in the air.

So what does everyone think?

edit: Oh, my bad now it's starting on it's fourth page. :)

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exp
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Post by exp » Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:27 pm

well,

I guess everyone is expecting to hear some kind of magical answer from me. In short there is none :P

I think we should go with a definition and explicitly state that exceptions are possible and that one should talk to a mod before adding anything which does not clearly fall under the definition.
The mass messaging of all users who have any files for a given anime in their mylists will also be implemented and might give the users time to state their opinions on why a borderline anime should stay or not.

That would leave the definition...
dunno :P

I think everyone can agree that a series/movie is anime if it is drawn, comes (in a way) from japan and it's original language is japanese.
(fan made titles would be an exception)
However I agree that such a definition is too restrictive.
Although if we explicitly state that expections are possible, we may well have a definition in place which is very restrictive.

To keep it simple we could simply say that it needs to have at least some drawn parts and it's original language has to be japanese.
That should take care of more than 95% of the legitimate entries in anidb.

We could then append some "guidelines" to the that definition which state the different cases which are likely to make a series/movie acceptable nontheless. (i.e. Korean/Chinese origin, noteable involvement of japanese companies or individuals, ...)
But in all those cases a mod should be contacted first.

comments?

BYe!
EXP

PS: please keep in mind that these are all suggestions so far, nothing is decided yet.

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DonGato
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Post by DonGato » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:50 pm

I think that is the best way to handle it so far.

But I would add in the general definition Korean/Chinese productions already.

Skywalka
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Post by Skywalka » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:51 am

Ultima wrote:I'm kinda annoyed by everyone, especially since the only two mods that have commented thus far are nwa and wahaha :P And to top it off, like nwa said, I'm getting all sorts of mail bugging me why it was deleted. It just happens that you're like one of the most active in this thread, and you happened to be the one I vented on. Sorry if I offended you.
No problem, since others explained why. If you get a lot of hatemail it's easy to pick on somebody who behaves just like those who offend you. I was just joking around a bit because I had this conversation for a gazillion times and just know that there is no common solution to this question. Maybe a common ground but so many people think so different things about what is anime and what not, sometimes even just to destinguis themselves yet again from the others like they were able to do so easily when they watched their first episode of NGE, which nowadays everybody knows.
Ultima wrote:However, there is some good news. Internally we're starting to discuss something to prevent something like this from happening again. Something along the lines of when an anime is about to be deleted, users will be notified and may be pointed to a forum thread to discuss whether it should/shouldn't be delete. It's still in the works though ;)
But this is indeed a good idea or better something taken over from other websites that can work (but not necessary has to work). If it is implemented, then you folks (the admins) should never be in the position where you defend yourselves for the deletion but merely let people who are angry vent their aggression. Which implies that no admin should singlehandedly delete an anime without checking with at least another admin. It's harder to pick on a decision made by more than one person.

Anyways, it seems what wahaha told me earlier is coming to pass. We're searching for a definitive answer, but it's gonna be very hard to come up with one that everyone is going to agree with. I wouldn't mind just limiting AniDB to anime that have an Asian company behind it, and booting out all the American ones. I'm up for exceptions to this idea, but the question is how far should we take it. And about Robotech, many consider it anime, and apparently many others don't consider it anime - so I think it's still up in the air.[/quote]

e-Viper
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Post by e-Viper » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:02 am

Deletion will only result in re-creation every 1 a 2 months

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nwa
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Post by nwa » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:59 am

and that's what bugs me the most... when an anime is added, it gets s specific ID and when it's deleted, that ID can't be used for another entries, it remains void for all eternity, although it's not a big deal, I still don't like the scattering of ID's :lol:

we got enough of the "re-creations" for animes that only have the original japanese title and when it gets licensed and it gets the new English title, it gets added right away (this is mainly a problem for hentai animes tho)

but in any case...
let me rephrase my former suggestions to setting the base rule

An anime is something that was produced in or by(co-projects with another country allowed) Japanese (exceptions include China and Korea) OR if the original dub was Japanese.
If an entry fails in both those criterias, it won't be considered anime.
There are some exceptions and if you're not sure whether it can be added to AniDB, then contact a mod.


or something like that...

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Post by Skywalka » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:37 pm

I guess Anime IDs that were used and deleted could stay in the DB in a "deleted" state and serve as some kind of blacklist.

For instance if somebody wants to add an Anime that has previously been added and deleted, he could get a hint that reads something like "the Anime entry you are trying to create is on the blacklist, it has been deleted before for not beeing Anime, please visit this forum thread for further information or read the fucking manual"

;)

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Post by Guest » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:48 pm

yes a very good idea, a list with deleted animes, which blocks the user from adding it with a warning. just like something like the same hash-filesize thing.

good one skywalka.

henkalex
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Post by henkalex » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:34 am

Half a year back the discussion was on what is anime and what not and Transformers G1 was deleted from the database. The discussion was not being continued a long time now, and I was wondering: Is transformers G1 anime enough to add it to the database again or not?

additional info:

Wikipedia states the following on Transformers G1:

"The Transformers" (G1) 1984-1987, America

AKA Fight! Super Robot Life (Seasons 1-2) and Transformers: 2010 (Season 3) in Japan

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers_series

So they have been broadcasted in Japan using other names for the series, maybe the have to be added with this titles...

henkalex
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Post by henkalex » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:04 pm

9 days later... no reaction. Am I hoping on an answer too early?

exp said to post it, maybe he can answer then?

egg
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Post by egg » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:25 am

Transformers G1 is one of the trickier shows to define. If it had been by itself, there is no question it would not be considered Anime. The trouble is that it is part of a series that most of it is Anime, so for the sake of completeness many people do believe that it should be listed. Also ANN does list it. What belongs in AniDB is up to the mods and ultimately exp, the lastest verdict on this was that Transformers G1 did not belong in the database and it was deleted.

BTW, Rar (who is now a mod), I believe supports adding it to the database, so you might try to PM him if he doesn't reply to this topic.

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Rar
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Post by Rar » Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:27 pm

/me wakes up from the long sleep, and sets out to wreak havoc upon the world (and anidb).

Yeah, I think my point was that for *every* transformers series, bar one cg thing made it Canada, *all* the animation was done in either japan (by Toei) or Korea. Unlike the Simpsons or something, which I think was the original comparisson for deletion, it's not a case of the animation being done in the US, then being shipped abroad for the grunt work on the colouration, all Toei seem to have got from Marvel were the storyboards. That's only one step further than all the World Masterpiece Theater series, and no one is suggesting they aren't anime. Certainly such close US/Japan co-productions are pretty rare, and purists might sniff at it, but as for setting a marketing precedent with using animation to sell toys, it's a pretty important milestone in anime history.

Rar

henkalex
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Post by henkalex » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:12 pm

Made an overview found on a site. I don't know if it is complete or not... (source: http://www.seibertron.com/database/medi ... /index.php)

Series
1. Fight! Super Robot Life (Pilot and First 2 seasons (65 eps total) of G1 and the Movie)
2. Transformers: 2010 (Rest of the eps of G1 (66 - 98)
3. Transformers: Headmasters (35 eps)
4. Transformers: Super God Masterforce (42 eps)
5. Transformers: Victory (32 eps)
6. Transformers: Zone (1 ep)
7. Beast wars Transformers (26 eps)
8. Beast Wars II (43 eps)
9. Beast Wars Neo (35 eps)
10. Beastwar Metals / Transmetals (26 eps (27-52 of Beast wars afaik))
11. Transformers: Robots in Disguise (39 eps)
12. Transformers: Legend of Micron (52 eps)
13. Transformers: Superlink (51 eps)
14. Transformers: galaxy Force (? eps, currently busy)

What is the status in the db:
1 and 2: Were formerly available in the anidb as Transformers: Generation 1. Transformers: The Movie is still in the database.
3, 4, 5 and 6: Are in the database.
7: Is not in the database
8: The special of the series is in the database under the title: Beast Wars Second: Lio Convoy kiki ippatsu. The source I given states it as a special.
9: Is not in the database.
10: Is not in the database
11: Is not in the database
12, 13 and 14: Are in the database.

Questions:
- Which ones of the series not in the database can be added?
- If Generation 1 is added again, must it be as 1 series, or as the two series stated?
- Have the special of Beast wars (which is in the anidb) to be an Ova or just a special on (8)? If it is just a special and Beast Wars will not be included in the anidb, shouldn't it be removed?

Concluding
I am willing to add the series, if they are allowed to be in the anidb. But first I would like to know which ones can be added. :)

--Edit: $@%# smilies when you don't want them...

Raptor
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Post by Raptor » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:07 pm

If we follow the rule that its better to include a bit too much than not enough, maybe something like this could work.

The cartoon can be added to anidb if:

the original language is japanese OR japanese were heavily involved in the creation process (production would not count of course) OR it is directly releated to something that is already considered anime.

Since this definition is rather inclusive i would also suggest something that would help those that consider some of these additions as not belonging in anidb.

The is already a blacklist wich doesnt seem to do much as far as i have discovered. I think it would be easy to make that any anime on the blacklist of a user would not appear in search or in the anime list for him. Exactly like the "hide anime i have" function but active at all time.
This way anybody that feel that a certain anime doesnt belong in the db can blacklist it and never see it again while other users that feel it should be there will be happy too.

also, if the user suddenly feel that a blacklisted anime is suddenly accpetable then he can remove it from his blacklist.

I think that with this simple solution. we could finally reach a solution that would please pretty much everybody. Those that include more and those that are more restrictive.


There would still be a few problems but much less than now.

egg
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Post by egg » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:33 pm

Raptor, I like some of your ideas... There is an "official" guideline that has been worked on for a few months now. Unfortunately it is difficult to do because there is not a consensus even within the mods/documentation group. I will try to stir things up again and hopefully that will be posted soon.

BTW, the definition will NOT resolve the questions on Transformers. Since this is now buried within this topic, I would recommend creating a new topic with the Subject "[ADD][ANIME] Transformers Generation 1" and list the reasons that it should be added and see what the mods have to say.

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