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Postby PetriW on Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:59 am

I guess... Honestly though I was not really considering it having such a large impact on other parts, rather my thought was that it would only affect the labels in the dropdown itself and only for that user.
Hence if the user has no votes, 5 is the labeled "average".
If the user has voted only 10 then 10 would be labeled "average".
If the user had voted 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 then 10 would still be labeled "average".
And if it was a normal user with 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10 then 7 would be labeled "average".

I kind of feel there's no use making it more complex than needed. Should not the new vote calculation thingie handle the rest?

Anyway, as I said, random thought. ;)
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Postby Gambit on Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:52 am

PetriW wrote:I guess... Honestly though I was not really considering it having such a large impact on other parts, rather my thought was that it would only affect the labels in the dropdown itself and only for that user.
Hence if the user has no votes, 5 is the labeled "average".
If the user has voted only 10 then 10 would be labeled "average".
If the user had voted 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 then 10 would still be labeled "average".
And if it was a normal user with 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10 then 7 would be labeled "average".

I thought about that as well, but didn`t think it was useful. If a user has only 10s, then 10 would be labeled average. What kind of dropdownbox should that user get then? Something like this? ;)
Code: Select all
1 - Really, really, really, really, really bad
2 - Really, really, really, really bad
3 - Really, really, really bad
4 - Really, really bad
5 - Really bad
6 - Very Bad
7 - Bad
8 - Much below average
9 - Below Average
10 - Average

Because 10 is average, the user cannot vote higher than average, because 10 is already the max. number available - which is his average. We`d have to be quite creative to find enough ways of expressing how bad (or good) something is when you have these kind of voters :P

My previous post would solve the ever-lasting difference between new and experienced voters though, due to the automatic vote-adjustion. I just don`t believe it`s realistic, although it is nice to dream about :D
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Postby PetriW on Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:02 pm

Actually, you don't really need to label every number. Just take the normal 1-10 scale and spread it out.
Code: Select all
1 -
2 - Really bad
3 -
4 - Very Bad
5 -
6 - Bad
7 -
8 - Below Average
9 -
10 - Average

or maybe even fewer labels
Code: Select all
1 -
2 - Very Bad
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 - Bad
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 - Average

or some such. (eg, very bad, bad, average, good, very good or neutral labels as some have suggested)

If you round the median to always be an even number you'd only have to define 10 patterns too. I guess the tards would be very confused though the first few votes! imagine them picking a 10 for very good on naruto then the 10 vote being labeled average everywhere else. ;)
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Postby egg on Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:35 pm

As long as we are talking about crazy ideas, how about not having users giving distinct votes at all. The user will indicate a general preference, (Hate it, dislike it, ok, like it, love it (or whatever)). Then system asks them if they liked it more or less than other things they watched in the same category. Then the system creates the user's votes in whatever distribution you like. (Note now it would be impossible to vote all 10's and/or 1's).
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Postby PetriW on Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:00 pm

egg wrote:As long as we are talking about crazy ideas, how about not having users giving distinct votes at all. The user will indicate a general preference, (Hate it, dislike it, ok, like it, love it (or whatever)). Then system asks them if they liked it more or less than other things they watched in the same category. Then the system creates the user's votes in whatever distribution you like. (Note now it would be impossible to vote all 10's and/or 1's).
That sounds kind of cool really. :D I approve! ;)
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Postby Der Idiot on Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:59 pm

if you want to force that at yourself have fun, but keep it away from me -_-;

aside of chii won't be able to cope with that
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Postby Gambit on Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:45 am

egg wrote:As long as we are talking about crazy ideas, how about not having users giving distinct votes at all. The user will indicate a general preference, (Hate it, dislike it, ok, like it, love it (or whatever)). Then system asks them if they liked it more or less than other things they watched in the same category. Then the system creates the user's votes in whatever distribution you like.

The not giving distinct votes-idea, sounds kind of like what epoximator suggested, by giving you choices to place an anime > Narutaru, or < Naruto and such. Since I criticized that, let me do that with yours as well :)

It seems like you have to vote in several 'steps', so your voting interface would change a couple of times. First you get a 'General Preference' (hate/like/love/etc), then a 'Specific Preference'. I suppose the latter would be a list of titles within a specific range they can choose from. This comparison (I think it would be on a similar level as title x rather than title y) will determine what kind of vote it gets. How do you plan these votes? Since you can only 'compare' them on a 'hate/like/love'-level, you will probably be seperating them in ranges between i.e. a 7 and 8 for 'like' with a more finegrained vote without actually seeing it. Is this how you meant it?
If not, I can`t see anything else but always-changing votes whenever one casts a new vote, which has to be related to other titles that person voted for. Kind of like using referencepointers between shows in order to determine how they are linked to each other in terms of voting.
Not to mention it`ll get pretty hard to determine an average rating of a show for all users.

How exactly would you determine the 'category', btw? Based on the genre, listed on the AniDB site?

@DerIdiot Chii`s pretty much limited to anything else but the static 1-10 range after all. The only way you can actually keep using Chii is by having the votes directly translated (if necessary) to the statuc 1-10 range the rest of the db uses. I already noticed that, so I restricted my previous suggestions to Chii-friendly ones ;)

@PetriW Leaving those spots open with only the last one telling you 'Average', there will be a lot of questions since it doesn`t seem logical. Or rather, it looks like a bug if you don`t know 'average' would be the max.

Another suggestions, to get back to the label-discussion we had before:
- How about implementing a preference-option for disabling/enabling labels after we revised them?

- How about disabling the numbers and going only with (revised/neutral) labels instead? Everyone can then interpret the labels as they want. Of course they correspond with numbers on the back-end, but they don`t get 'pressured' into believing i.e. 7 = good, but casting a vote 'good' for an anime. It doesn`t care what kind of number is behind it then, as long as the people can relate to the label next to it.

And I`m curious to hear what EXP and epox think of PetriW`s original 'silly idea' I took apart here. Is that even feasible?
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Postby fahrenheit on Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:38 am

If we are still talking about silly ideias that will take for ever, if ever, to get implemented, what about this one:

Instead of a 1~10 scale, label a 5 point scale without numbers:

Very Bad
Bad
Average
Good
Very Good

these would get a correspondence to the current 1.x to 10.0 votes, like so:

Very Bad = [0,2[ = 2.00
Bad = [2,4[ = 3.75
Average = [4,6[ = 5.00
Good = [6,8[ = 7.25
Very Good = [8,10[ = 8.00

Obviously this would be only for the web interface, and the current show fine grained votes, whould revert to the normal behaviour, chii would be unaffected.
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Postby epoximator on Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:26 am

1. preference: 96% (taken from thin air) of the users use the default anyway. so the question is what that should be
2. would be slighly better and worse.. better because it removes the mapping, worse because labels will never be even distr/objective/international
3. i think, without checking anything, that the "silly idea" would be easy to implement. that goes for the other ideas too
4. i don't think voting in two steps would hurt anyone. it could be 3 or 5 links that opens a popup, then cast

atm, i think the current solution (with possibly other labels at top/bottom) + optional assisted voting would be best (one of the suggested alternatives). could of course have several different options, but.. even one is overkill, imo. needless to say, it's really not up to me to decide anything. i'll just do what i'm told (possibly slowly, though. eheh)

and keep chii out of this. she's only 12yo
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Postby PetriW on Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:06 pm

The chii bastages can keep to their barbaric number votes. ;)
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Postby egg on Tue May 01, 2007 3:49 am

Gambit wrote:It seems like you have to vote in several 'steps', so your voting interface would change a couple of times.

Since I was just throwing out a crazy idea, I didn't document it that well...

Yes, it has multiple steps, but that that could be handled with an interactive interface (rather than full page loads).

First was a general preference, this served two purposes. It limits it to a certain range of voting. Second it gives a limited range of anime to compare against.

After that the users is either prompted with a series of questions of whether the users likes this anime more or less than other animes in that range that they had already voted for. From the users answers it will determine where the anime should go in the list of animes and set the votes for the user.

Let me give an example. For the purpose of this example lets say the vote ranges are:
Hate it: 0-2
Dislike it: 1-4
OK: 4-6
Like it: 6-8
Love it: 8-10

A new user votes on an ABC. They say they love it. Since it is the only anime they "Love", the system will assign the middle of the range which is 9.

Then the user votes for DEF. They say they love it. The system will then ask if they like it more or less than ABC, they say more. The system will reassign ABC to 8.66 and DEF to 9.33.

Then the user votes for GHI. They say they love it. The system will then ask if they like it more or less than ABC, they say less. The system will then ask if they like it more or less than DEF, they say more. The system will reassign ABC to 8.50, GHI to 9.00 and DEF to 9.50.

With the more things that have been voted for, the more questions the user will be asked. One way to handle this is to create a list and ask the user where to insert the anime.

So every vote will reassign all the votes in that range to match the desired distribution. If a person votes too much for a particular range, then the system will push votes out of that range and into another range.

Within my example let us say the user always says they love the anime, eventually (depending on the tolerances that are built into the system) it will push the lowest ranked "love it" into the "like it" range.

Sorry when I said category, I meant the range of votes.

I knew it wouldn't work for Chii, but that is a minority of the users and they are probably better at voting than most. And if people don't like voting in the web, then maybe channel participation may soar...
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Postby Gambit on Tue May 01, 2007 1:15 pm

While I understand your idea, I think it might be a bit too eventful for a 'simple vote'. Perhaps a more simple variant of this would be to pop up a total list of titles, where you can click between which two titles it should be placed, instead of letting you go through all of these titles to reach the same thing.

The drawback is that - just like with PetriW`s suggestion, it will cause a lot of votes to be re-calculated. Not only your own votes, but also per anime everytime a vote is being cast for that particular anime.
If that`s no problem - which I think it is, due to the massive re-calculations - I`d prefer PetriW`s suggestion where all your votes are converted to relative votes for all votes, instead of inserting them between 2 other titles.
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Postby vivafruit on Wed May 09, 2007 6:33 am

You'd have to have a much more rigorous genre system for this to work. Princess Tutu and Ebichu are both "Comedy," but would anything useful come from comparing the two?
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Postby epoximator on Wed May 09, 2007 8:09 am

egg wrote:Sorry when I said category, I meant the range of votes.
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