Subtitles and length

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Postby SinsI on Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:22 pm

In cases where subtitles are not designed for a particular raw, but rather for any raw of a certain length, where should I mention it?

for episodes 5,6 and later of http://anidb.info/perl-bin/animedb.pl?s ... e&aid=4144
there are two kinds of raws(not all of them are mentioned in the AniDB database): 24:00 and 23:40, and two subtitle files, timed for those raws.
At first I'd put information about the required raw length into comments - they were deleted by modedit
And now I see that another modedit changed their length field also to 0.

How should one destinguish them now?
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Postby Der Idiot on Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:00 pm

first. subtitles don't have a length. that field is reserved for video files. will get more obvious once the new fileadd page is added.

second. the filecomment is redundant as it's a mere subtitle. you cna easily add an offset to match it whatever raw you want.

third there is the filerelationfeature to set the relation to the raw it is intended for. will also get more useful once the new animepage is added.
and if a raw isn't in anidb then go ahead and add it.
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Postby SinsI on Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:30 pm

Der Idiot, the group in question releases subtitles not related to any specific files. It just "fits any raw of 23.40 length". I re-time it and can add filerelation to a 24:00 raw I have, but I also want to add the original one, and make it clear that it is timed for 23:40 (I don't have that raw, so I can't add any filerelation for it).
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Postby Amour on Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:18 pm

Der Idiot wrote:first. subtitles don't have a length. that field is reserved for video files.

This is a big mistake. Subtitles are always timed, so they always have a related length.

Video track + Audio track + Subtitle track are meant to work together, so they must have all the same length.
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Postby Der Idiot on Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:40 pm

relative length is bs. if i set an offset of lets say 5h. does that make the file 5h and 20min of length? yes? no? who the fuck cares. it's just an offset. any tard can fix that in 3 clicks.
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Postby SinsI on Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:58 pm

For simple subs it can be so, it can take about 30 seconds. But, why should dozens of people do it for dozens of episodes(remembering wrongly timed Ranma1/2) if they can just use something that was already timed?
Also, there are subs with karaoke and signs, and that is a notch or two higher in difficulty to retime correctly.

There can be several versions of a subtitles without associated raw that differ only in timing. So, it does make sense to interpret the length of the subtitle as the required length of a raw.

Can you please tell me, why are you against keeping that field and optionally filling it with the required raw length? Is it that hard not to delete that information?

...just to think that such a feature is prohibited then there's a waste of three CRC fields for subtitles (they usually don't come with any CRC at all).
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Postby nwa on Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:15 pm

Are you actually talking about adding a length to a subtitle file?

Subtitle LINES are timed, not the subtitle file itself, which can't be measured by length nor can length be calculated from it unlike with video and audio files.

Amour wrote:Video track + Audio track + Subtitle track are meant to work together, so they must have all the same length.


Wrong again, besides the fact that subtitle tracks don't have any length, video and audio files don't need to have the same length, in fact, they can be wrong by minutes. Most common difference comes in with vfr, which is fixed by timecode files or another possibility is that either the length of the audio is simply longer than the length of video or vice versa, nothing goes out of sync.

But back to subs, since you can't in any way add a definitive length to a subtitle file, I mean... what length would you add to a subttile anyway? Where'd you take it? From the end time value of the last line? That would be just wrong... add the same length as the video file the subs were synced with? But what if there are more than 1 video files that the subs are in sync with but the files differ in length? For example one file has the ED, the other file doesn't or just one file ends earlier than the other.

SinsI wrote:lso, there are subs with karaoke and signs, and that is a notch or two higher in difficulty to retime correctly.

How are these more difficult to retime? I mean the line lengths and karaoke syllable times should all be correct, you'd only need to shift times, the same way you'd shift times of a dialogue subtitle file for a different video. Anything more and you're looking at a worngly timed script in the first place.

SinsI wrote:...just to think that such a feature is prohibited then there's a waste of three CRC fields for subtitles (they usually don't come with any CRC at all).

the crc field and the other hash fields are used for identifying the file, as in comparing your file against the one in anidb, the "crc coming with the file" thing is only used for setting the status of crc.



Hmm, typed a bit too much, but I'm at work and bored as usual.
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Postby SinsI on Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:08 am

What I'm talking about is not the subtitle length, but rather the length of designated raw
And "definite length" as a substitute for that unknown "related file" in cases the one adding the sub doesn't have the raw itself.

How are these more difficult to retime? I mean the line lengths and karaoke syllable times should all be correct, you'd only need to shift times, the same way you'd shift times of a dialogue subtitle file for a different video. Anything more and you're looking at a worngly timed script in the first place.

A lot more precision required. Otherwise you can find the sign that was placed on a signboard covering the face of the main hero or karaoke lyrics being out-of-synch.

the crc field and the other hash fields are used for identifying the file, as in comparing your file against the one in anidb, the "crc coming with the file" thing is only used for setting the status of crc.

The thing is, while it works perfectly for video and audio, comparing the text subtitles via CRC is almost useless. If you have a wrong CRC for video it means that the file is damaged. But for subtitles, where you can freely add/remove spaces, change font size or correct "l' into 'i', you can still have almost the same or completely the same (at least visually) file.
Even doing 'load subtitle' and then 'save subtitle' in MPClassic produces different CRC from the original - without changing the subtitle itself.
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Postby Rar on Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:13 am

We have a "related files" thingy, what's the actual issue here? Looks like a solved problem to me.

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Postby SinsI on Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:36 am

Rar, please re-read the above posts...
In this case "related file" cannot be used because the file is unavailable - the subtitles were released that way.
And the problem is with distinguishing various versions of the subs - no comments for them, no "length" for them.
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Postby Rar on Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:51 am

Subs are distinguished by hash, like everything else. Subs either fit a particular file or they don't. No subtitle can fit "any raw of a certain length". There might be a display/interface issue here, but there's not a technical one.

And, quite frankly, it's crap-moe-anime, NEXT issue please.

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Postby nwa on Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:15 am

SinsI wrote:A lot more precision required. Otherwise you can find the sign that was placed on a signboard covering the face of the main hero or karaoke lyrics being out-of-synch.

No, not really. Signs are timed based on frames in which the Japanese sign is on screen, so these are the easiest to time with a proper subtitle editor like Aegisub. Karaoke timing requires more precision, but it can still be done in the matter of 10-30 seconds, you only need to have functional ears.

SinsI wrote:In this case "related file" cannot be used because the file is unavailable - the subtitles were released that way.


The subs are either timed or they are not, if they are timed, then they were timed according to a file, if you don't know the file they were timed on or they're not timed at all, then you simply don't add a relation (and in case of it being untimed, you add a description saying the file is untimed).

SinsI wrote:And the problem is with distinguishing various versions of the subs - no comments for them, no "length" for them.


Again you talk about length... what kind of a length do you add to a subtitle file? If you know the length of the video it should be in sync with, then you should know the file it was timed on and you can add the file relation.


Furthermore, only files that were released to the public someplace else than AniDB are allowed to be added to AniDB, so if you take a script released by some group and retime it yourself, you shouldn't add it to AniDB unless you release it to the public somewhere else.
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Postby Amour on Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:52 pm

nwa wrote:Most common difference comes in with vfr

What is vfr?
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Postby epoximator on Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:43 pm

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